Final: Blues vs Crusaders
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@Steven-Harris said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
Interesting some posting that Richie Mounga is now the clear number 1 10 in the country , I personally don’t think there’s much difference BB and Mounga , just different types of players , life is a hell of lot easier to showcase your skills when your pack is on top ..
Think back to the 2019 RWC semi final again against England , Mounga did not feature , only thing I can remember is his early missed tackle which England scored off..it set the tone for the game .
End of season tour last year , completely shut especially against France
So for me , unless their packs are operating at optimum..you could have god at first five and he’d probably struggle .The way Beauden and Richie finished last season, I think Beauden had his nose in front to start this year.
Relative performances in the final has it back at parity in my eyes.
I'm not bothered who starts, but if it's wet probably Richie's kicking game is better.
Who knows which way Fozzie will go.
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@Chris-B said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
@Steven-Harris said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
Interesting some posting that Richie Mounga is now the clear number 1 10 in the country , I personally don’t think there’s much difference BB and Mounga , just different types of players , life is a hell of lot easier to showcase your skills when your pack is on top ..
Think back to the 2019 RWC semi final again against England , Mounga did not feature , only thing I can remember is his early missed tackle which England scored off..it set the tone for the game .
End of season tour last year , completely shut especially against France
So for me , unless their packs are operating at optimum..you could have god at first five and he’d probably struggle .The way Beauden and Richie finished last season, I think Beauden had his nose in front to start this year.
Relative performances in the final has it back at parity in my eyes.
I'm not bothered who starts, but if it's wet probably Richie's kicking game is better.
Who knows which way Fozzie will go.
Is that because Barrett did not play the French or Ireland we’re our Forward pack got dominated.
Tough for a First Five as we saw in the Final.
So BB didn’t have to play under those circumstances. -
@Chris-B said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
@Steven-Harris said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
Interesting some posting that Richie Mounga is now the clear number 1 10 in the country , I personally don’t think there’s much difference BB and Mounga , just different types of players , life is a hell of lot easier to showcase your skills when your pack is on top ..
Think back to the 2019 RWC semi final again against England , Mounga did not feature , only thing I can remember is his early missed tackle which England scored off..it set the tone for the game .
End of season tour last year , completely shut especially against France
So for me , unless their packs are operating at optimum..you could have god at first five and he’d probably struggle .The way Beauden and Richie finished last season, I think Beauden had his nose in front to start this year.
Relative performances in the final has it back at parity in my eyes.
I'm not bothered who starts, but if it's wet probably Richie's kicking game is better.
Who knows which way Fozzie will go.
I think if Razor was coach we'd see Mo'unga starting, not because Razor would have any bias towards him, but because he wasn't in the coaching setup that tried to implement the failed "duel playmaker" strategy at the RWC with Mo'unga at 10. The way Beauden has been favoured since makes me think Fozzie is still hurting from that and lost confidence that Mo'unga can handle test footy against the big boys.
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@Chris-B said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
@Steven-Harris said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
Interesting some posting that Richie Mounga is now the clear number 1 10 in the country , I personally don’t think there’s much difference BB and Mounga , just different types of players , life is a hell of lot easier to showcase your skills when your pack is on top ..
Think back to the 2019 RWC semi final again against England , Mounga did not feature , only thing I can remember is his early missed tackle which England scored off..it set the tone for the game .
End of season tour last year , completely shut especially against France
So for me , unless their packs are operating at optimum..you could have god at first five and he’d probably struggle .The way Beauden and Richie finished last season, I think Beauden had his nose in front to start this year.
Relative performances in the final has it back at parity in my eyes.
I'm not bothered who starts, but if it's wet probably Richie's kicking game is better.
Who knows which way Fozzie will go.
I just hope we don't go down the path of trying to fit everyone into the starting side. If Mo'unga starts then I think the best thing to do is leave Beaudy on the bench instead of trying to fit him in at fullback. I'd prefer Jordan and Jordie there anyway but I think having Beaudy and Mo'unga starting together just blurs the lines of who's running the ship.
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@Canes4life said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
@Chris-B said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
@Steven-Harris said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
Interesting some posting that Richie Mounga is now the clear number 1 10 in the country , I personally don’t think there’s much difference BB and Mounga , just different types of players , life is a hell of lot easier to showcase your skills when your pack is on top ..
Think back to the 2019 RWC semi final again against England , Mounga did not feature , only thing I can remember is his early missed tackle which England scored off..it set the tone for the game .
End of season tour last year , completely shut especially against France
So for me , unless their packs are operating at optimum..you could have god at first five and he’d probably struggle .The way Beauden and Richie finished last season, I think Beauden had his nose in front to start this year.
Relative performances in the final has it back at parity in my eyes.
I'm not bothered who starts, but if it's wet probably Richie's kicking game is better.
Who knows which way Fozzie will go.
I just hope we don't go down the path of trying to fit everyone into the starting side. If Mo'unga starts then I think the best thing to do is leave Beaudy on the bench instead of trying to fit him in at fullback. I'd prefer Jordan and Jordie there anyway but I think having Beaudy and Mo'unga starting together just blurs the lines of who's running the ship.
With all the noise that has been made about Jordie being a standout 15 I doubt that would happen
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@No-Quarter Yep, Robertson said end of last year that the game plan didn't suit RM and some of the other backs (incl Havili, I think) and didn't allow them to play to their strengths. At SR level, Razor & co can get the best out of his backs (and forwards) and I'm sure our ABs backline (whoever is in it) would be firing better if he was the coach.
People like to point out that RM wasn't good against the stronger teams (which is correct), but forget to mention that BB wasn't good against those teams either (or not playing). The whole game plan was utterly wrong and forced players to play a game they're not good at (just think of that horror kicking game they played against South Africa; that still gives me nightmares. Also all backs standing way too flat). It was a good example of bad analysis and poor strategy. If they can't fix that, we're doomed, whoever plays at what position in the forwards or the backs.
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@Stargazer this right here is the key. It doesn't matter which one you pick (they're very similar players) just fucking coach them!!
Players are all the same, when the pressure goes on they resort to instinct. Coach that out of them!!
Play straight. Wait for your opportunities. And when the squeeze goes on, and it will, don't try and get out of it yourself, don't run to where you hope there is space, stay straight. Kick the fucking thing. Play tighter. Be patient.
At the moment it feels like we pick 23 players, and tell them to do what they feel is best. And then hammer them when they fall back to what works for them at Super level.
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@Stargazer said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
@KiwiPie I hope we don't have to wait that long!
Forgot to mention he was celebrating his three-peat!
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@mariner4life said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
@Stargazer this right here is the key. It doesn't matter which one you pick (they're very similar players) just fucking coach them!!
Players are all the same, when the pressure goes on they resort to instinct. Coach that out of them!!
Play straight. Wait for your opportunities. And when the squeeze goes on, and it will, don't try and get out of it yourself, don't run to where you hope there is space, stay straight. Kick the fucking thing. Play tighter. Be patient.
Sometimes, their instinct may be right, and better than the game plan. Staying straight is such cliche. Sometimes looking for the holes is better. The key is picking the right moments to do it and making sure the player next to you understands what you're going to do. That requires consistency in selection, to get those combos gelling.
At the moment it feels like we pick 23 players, and tell them to do what they feel is best. And then hammer them when they fall back to what works for them at Super level.
It doesn't look like that to me at all. It feels like they're told to play a certain way and they're not allowed to deviate from it when it doesn't work. Example again is that stupid kicking game. And then they get hammered. It again comes down to having the right game plan that uses the players' strength and that plan being flexible in case it doesn't work.
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@Stargazer said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
@mariner4life said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
@Stargazer this right here is the key. It doesn't matter which one you pick (they're very similar players) just fucking coach them!!
Players are all the same, when the pressure goes on they resort to instinct. Coach that out of them!!
Play straight. Wait for your opportunities. And when the squeeze goes on, and it will, don't try and get out of it yourself, don't run to where you hope there is space, stay straight. Kick the fucking thing. Play tighter. Be patient.
Sometimes, their instinct may be right, and better than the game plan. Staying straight is such cliche. Sometimes looking for the holes is better. The key is picking the right moments to do it and making sure the player next to you understands what you're going to do. That requires consistency in selection, to get those combos gelling.
At the moment it feels like we pick 23 players, and tell them to do what they feel is best. And then hammer them when they fall back to what works for them at Super level.
It doesn't look like that to me at all. It feels like they're told to play a certain way and they're not allowed to deviate from it when it doesn't work. Example again is that stupid kicking game. And then they get hammered. It again comes down to having the right game plan that uses the players' strength and that plan being flexible in case it doesn't work.
I'm not sure if you fellas read a lot of coaches and players books (or coached), almost never does a coach have a set game plan that must be strictly adhered to by players. AB actually have a senior group of players that usually work with coaches etc and set the gameplan with them. Senior group from this squad have already been meeting for quite awhile this year. You can never have a strict game plan as how the opposition sets how you play the game usually.
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Chiefs forwards dominated in the semi final and the Blues forwards were dominated in the final. RM and DH were average against the Chiefs in the semi final. Low and behold they looked liked world beaters against the Blues in the final.
Maybe Robertsons master plan is for forward dominance and that way the backs (especially RM) can let rip.
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@No-Quarter said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
@Chris-B said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
@Steven-Harris said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
Interesting some posting that Richie Mounga is now the clear number 1 10 in the country , I personally don’t think there’s much difference BB and Mounga , just different types of players , life is a hell of lot easier to showcase your skills when your pack is on top ..
Think back to the 2019 RWC semi final again against England , Mounga did not feature , only thing I can remember is his early missed tackle which England scored off..it set the tone for the game .
End of season tour last year , completely shut especially against France
So for me , unless their packs are operating at optimum..you could have god at first five and he’d probably struggle .The way Beauden and Richie finished last season, I think Beauden had his nose in front to start this year.
Relative performances in the final has it back at parity in my eyes.
I'm not bothered who starts, but if it's wet probably Richie's kicking game is better.
Who knows which way Fozzie will go.
I think if Razor was coach we'd see Mo'unga starting, not because Razor would have any bias towards him, but because he wasn't in the coaching setup that tried to implement the failed "duel playmaker" strategy at the RWC with Mo'unga at 10. The way Beauden has been favoured since makes me think Fozzie is still hurting from that and lost confidence that Mo'unga can handle test footy against the big boys.
Not sure that's quite the right interpretation.
It was supposed to be "dual" playmaker, not "duel" - but, I think the latter is a bit the way it turned out - Beaudy a bit too dominant.
But, 2020, Fozzie carried on with the dual playmaker experiment and Richie played all five tests at first five, and Beaudy played at fullback.
In 2021, Richie still started as the favoured first five - he started 4 of the first five tests (skipped the first vs Fiji which BB started) and Beaudy came off the bench. (BB had been away on sabbatical so I think Fozzie rightfully gave him a little kick for that).
Richie then skipped several tests on paternity leave, which is where the shift came - Beady started several while he was away and DMac got a start as well.
When Richie came back Beaudy retained the starters jersey for the 2nd SA test, Wales and Ireland (where he got injured), while Richie started vs USA, Italy and France.
Mainly, I think Richie opened the door for Beaudy and that's always a risky business - and when RM came back, I didn't think he played particularly well.
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@No-Quarter said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
@Chris-B said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
@Steven-Harris said in Final: Blues vs Crusaders:
Interesting some posting that Richie Mounga is now the clear number 1 10 in the country , I personally don’t think there’s much difference BB and Mounga , just different types of players , life is a hell of lot easier to showcase your skills when your pack is on top ..
Think back to the 2019 RWC semi final again against England , Mounga did not feature , only thing I can remember is his early missed tackle which England scored off..it set the tone for the game .
End of season tour last year , completely shut especially against France
So for me , unless their packs are operating at optimum..you could have god at first five and he’d probably struggle .The way Beauden and Richie finished last season, I think Beauden had his nose in front to start this year.
Relative performances in the final has it back at parity in my eyes.
I'm not bothered who starts, but if it's wet probably Richie's kicking game is better.
Who knows which way Fozzie will go.
I think if Razor was coach we'd see Mo'unga starting, not because Razor would have any bias towards him, but because he wasn't in the coaching setup that tried to implement the failed "duel playmaker" strategy at the RWC with Mo'unga at 10. The way Beauden has been favoured since makes me think Fozzie is still hurting from that and lost confidence that Mo'unga can handle test footy against the big boys.
There's that and the fact that Mounga has done nothing in tests since to make anyone think that 2019 isn't basically his level in tests
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@Chris-B far too many factual statements in that post. I do think they worry about Mo'unga's ability to execute their gameplan though given he's not one to take the line on the way Beauden does (e.g. happy to crash it up when there's no holes in the defensive line). I really don't think they use either player well at all.
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@No-Quarter Both of them would look a shitload better in tough tests with peak Ma'a Nonu to flick the ball on to.
But, as Steven Harris notes above - when your forward pack is getting beaten up, even God is going to struggle in the 10 jersey.
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'You had one job': The pre-match blunder that flagged trouble for Blues in final
