Time Management in the game
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Thought that it might be good to keep thoughts/ideas on this aspect of the game in one place.
Rather than re-visit the Bled 1 situation I thought we could discuss options and the pros and cons.
Obviously some code mouthpieces have already chipped in so this is the place to discuss them without the ref bashing/praise
JK has also made similar comments about having time limits for all restarts. I'm sure some 'journalist' will repeat them to easily fill their word count quota for the day soon.
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I applaud all ideas to speed the game up except those that involve turning the match clock on and off all the time.
Part of the problem (and the reason we have time laws) is that the game is meant to be played without huddles and discussions at every stop. No breathers for behemoth forwards, no strategic talks beyond the snippets you can call while getting to the restart etc
If you stop the clock that just allows all of that to happen. This isn't NFL.
Side effect is also that the game gets de-powered and advantage is to sides that are fit and quick of thought. -
@Crucial said in Time Management in the game:
Side effect is also that the game gets de-powered and advantage is to sides that are fit and quick of thought.
Carrying extra weight should be a gamble - that you get power, but at the risk of getting gassed and running out of puff. 8 Subs and whole new front rows, combined with mulitple injury/water breaks and slow penalty/scrum activity kills that.
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@nzzp said in Time Management in the game:
@Crucial said in Time Management in the game:
Side effect is also that the game gets de-powered and advantage is to sides that are fit and quick of thought.
Carrying extra weight should be a gamble - that you get power, but at the risk of getting gassed and running out of puff. 8 Subs and whole new front rows, combined with mulitple injury/water breaks and slow penalty/scrum activity kills that.
Take note how front rowers have gone from playing the whole game, to being subbed at 60 as standard, to being subbed just after half time. And yet they still take a knee, have shoelace problems or need a squirt of spray.
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A small one but think it could have a major effect
Free kicks. Change them so that they can be kicked to touch like a penalty, with kicking team retaining possession (or at least the throw in).
So many free kicks awarded at scrum resets result in more resets. Teams will be less inclined to reset if they can pick up 40m and an attacking lineout.
As I saw mentioned by someone here, free kick against teams that can't field a scrum.
Was going to say dump free kicks and just have penalties, but if I'm going to bring in free kicking for not presenting at scrum that would result in undeserved shots at points.
Also, there's no reason to wait for injuries at lineouts. If it's your thrower, tough shit. Have an alternative. Teams will develop strategies.
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@booboo said in Time Management in the game:
A small one but think it could have a major effect
Free kicks. Change them so that they can be kicked to touch like a penalty, with kicking team retaining possession (or at least the throw in).
Or just shift 10 m upfield (or half the distance to the goal) and have the throw in. Takes kicking out of the game, and limits the effect of free kicks. Down side is reduces the importance of scrums - so you start to take away some of the unique skillsets that I like in Rugby. I'd prefer if scrums were more of a wrestle rather than a hit - and teams just 'got on with it'. Pipe dream, I know, but the old way of front rows engaging, locks coming in and then loosies binding seemed to work.
Maybe we should allow loosies to detach again to reward dominant scums?
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I totally don't want the clock stopped at all. Everything should be on a strict timer. You've got X Y Z seconds to form linout, scrum, take kick. If you don't make it, free kick to the opposition. If one of your player's is down, tough shit, carry on, no matter what. If it's your hooker or front rower for set piece, free kick to the opposition, or replace the player as the clock stops for replacements. You've got 8 on the bench FFS. Along with implementing 7s still zero tolerance, the game would be much better, faster, less impact and injuries - just get a move on.
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Remember the ELVs?
Nearly everything adopted except for the bits that sped up the game.
NH had a huge fear of faster play, understandably because their games at the time were slower and players didn't have the same speed of thought as an instinct.
The NH games have changed now and that instinctive play is noticeably improved from the times you could almost see a midfielder thinking.Penalty kicks are generally to be given only for offside and foul play. Most other penalties will become free kicks, with the option of taking a scrum as in the current laws, which cannot be used for a kick at goal or a dropped goal.
This didn't stop resets as a reset could be called for a FK. This was probably a sook to the NH setpiece based game at the time.
I can also see that a team with a weak scrum could just give away a FK and avoid another scrum, effectively taking the forwards out of the game.
It is already the case that successive FKs become penalties so I don't see endless resets.From Wikipedia -
Trials in Australia
- The ball spent more time in play, producing a faster game.
Fewer penalties (kicks at goal) were given.
More free kicks were awarded, but were usually run instantly, producing quick play-ons.
Forwards and backs line up against each other more often, blurring the lines of traditional positional play.
One of the main 'worries' which does have some merit is a concern about a faster game changing the fundamentals of participation at community levels.
Why not have law variations for professionals?
- The ball spent more time in play, producing a faster game.
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@Crucial said in Time Management in the game:
Remember the ELVs?
Nearly everything adopted except for the bits that sped up the game.
NH had a huge fear of faster play, understandably because their games at the time were slower and players didn't have the same speed of thought as an instinct.
The NH games have changed now and that instinctive play is noticeably improved from the times you could almost see a midfielder thinking.Penalty kicks are generally to be given only for offside and foul play. Most other penalties will become free kicks, with the option of taking a scrum as in the current laws, which cannot be used for a kick at goal or a dropped goal.
This didn't stop resets as a reset could be called for a FK. This was probably a sook to the NH setpiece based game at the time.
I can also see that a team with a weak scrum could just give away a FK and avoid another scrum, effectively taking the forwards out of the game.
It is already the case that successive FKs become penalties so I don't see endless resets.From Wikipedia -
Trials in Australia
- The ball spent more time in play, producing a faster game.
Fewer penalties (kicks at goal) were given.
More free kicks were awarded, but were usually run instantly, producing quick play-ons.
Forwards and backs line up against each other more often, blurring the lines of traditional positional play.
One of the main 'worries' which does have some merit is a concern about a faster game changing the fundamentals of participation at community levels.
Why not have law variations for professionals?
Variations for pros are already in, like TMO. So I'm totally on board with rules around time getting stricter as level goes up.
- The ball spent more time in play, producing a faster game.
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@Machpants pros get to train all week and are bigger, faster, fitter. Finding one set of laws to apply to amatuers and pros alike is part of the game's problems IMO.
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@Machpants said in Time Management in the game:
I totally don't want the clock stopped at all. Everything should be on a strict timer. You've got X Y Z seconds to form linout, scrum, take kick. If you don't make it, free kick to the opposition. If one of your player's is down, tough shit, carry on, no matter what. If it's your hooker or front rower for set piece, free kick to the opposition, or replace the player as the clock stops for replacements. You've got 8 on the bench FFS. Along with implementing 7s still zero tolerance, the game would be much better, faster, less impact and injuries - just get a move on.
As much as it bugs me too, we have to be careful when it comes to stopping for injuries. Player welfare is a biggie. All it needs is for one player to be seriously injured and assistance doesn't reach him on time because of the game situation for rugby to be in the poo.
A disincentive to help stop the fake injury breaks would be good. Maybe something like they have in Soccer. If you go down needing assistance you go to the sideline until next stop in play.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Time Management in the game:
@Machpants said in Time Management in the game:
I totally don't want the clock stopped at all. Everything should be on a strict timer. You've got X Y Z seconds to form linout, scrum, take kick. If you don't make it, free kick to the opposition. If one of your player's is down, tough shit, carry on, no matter what. If it's your hooker or front rower for set piece, free kick to the opposition, or replace the player as the clock stops for replacements. You've got 8 on the bench FFS. Along with implementing 7s still zero tolerance, the game would be much better, faster, less impact and injuries - just get a move on.
As much as it bugs me too, we have to be careful when it comes to stopping for injuries. Player welfare is a biggie. All it needs is for one player to be seriously injured and assistance doesn't reach him on time because of the game situation for rugby to be in the poo.
A disincentive to help stop the fake injury breaks would be good. Maybe something like they have in Soccer. If you go down needing assistance you go to the sideline until next stop in play.
How is anything different to the current situation in that regard? Refs will stop play if they see a serious injury or if informed by med staff or other players.
Maybe some team could try and take the piss by feigning a serious injury but I think refs would have a good read on that. -
@Crazy-Horse said in Time Management in the game:
@Machpants said in Time Management in the game:
I totally don't want the clock stopped at all. Everything should be on a strict timer. You've got X Y Z seconds to form linout, scrum, take kick. If you don't make it, free kick to the opposition. If one of your player's is down, tough shit, carry on, no matter what. If it's your hooker or front rower for set piece, free kick to the opposition, or replace the player as the clock stops for replacements. You've got 8 on the bench FFS. Along with implementing 7s still zero tolerance, the game would be much better, faster, less impact and injuries - just get a move on.
As much as it bugs me too, we have to be careful when it comes to stopping for injuries. Player welfare is a biggie. All it needs is for one player to be seriously injured and assistance doesn't reach him on time because of the game situation for rugby to be in the poo.
A disincentive to help stop the fake injury breaks would be good. Maybe something like they have in Soccer. If you go down needing assistance you go to the sideline until next stop in play.
As I said, you go down, time stops, and you must be replaced. If it is not that bad, carry on.
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I posted a while ago. Nigel owens wrote a piece about this a while ago. After Bok 1. He’s very concerned about this subject ruining the game and had a handful of suggestions
Two I remember. You can have eight replacements sitting on the bench but you can only use three (might have been four)
If you go down with an injury you go off immediately to get checked by a Dr
As an aside he also said he reviewed the Wallaby game and said it was brave and accurate refereeing
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After seeing teams like Ireland and SA turn time wasting into an art form, something must be done to maintain a reasonable pace of play
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@Machpants said in Time Management in the game:
@Crazy-Horse said in Time Management in the game:
@Machpants said in Time Management in the game:
I totally don't want the clock stopped at all. Everything should be on a strict timer. You've got X Y Z seconds to form linout, scrum, take kick. If you don't make it, free kick to the opposition. If one of your player's is down, tough shit, carry on, no matter what. If it's your hooker or front rower for set piece, free kick to the opposition, or replace the player as the clock stops for replacements. You've got 8 on the bench FFS. Along with implementing 7s still zero tolerance, the game would be much better, faster, less impact and injuries - just get a move on.
As much as it bugs me too, we have to be careful when it comes to stopping for injuries. Player welfare is a biggie. All it needs is for one player to be seriously injured and assistance doesn't reach him on time because of the game situation for rugby to be in the poo.
A disincentive to help stop the fake injury breaks would be good. Maybe something like they have in Soccer. If you go down needing assistance you go to the sideline until next stop in play.
As I said, you go down, time stops, and you must be replaced. If it is not that bad, carry on.
@Machpants said in Time Management in the game:
@Crazy-Horse said in Time Management in the game:
@Machpants said in Time Management in the game:
I totally don't want the clock stopped at all. Everything should be on a strict timer. You've got X Y Z seconds to form linout, scrum, take kick. If you don't make it, free kick to the opposition. If one of your player's is down, tough shit, carry on, no matter what. If it's your hooker or front rower for set piece, free kick to the opposition, or replace the player as the clock stops for replacements. You've got 8 on the bench FFS. Along with implementing 7s still zero tolerance, the game would be much better, faster, less impact and injuries - just get a move on.
As I said, you go down, time stops, and you must be replaced. If it is not that bad, carry on.
But that doesn't stop fake injuries, or exaggeration, in soccer.
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@Rapido said in Time Management in the game:
@Machpants said in Time Management in the game:
@Crazy-Horse said in Time Management in the game:
@Machpants said in Time Management in the game:
I totally don't want the clock stopped at all. Everything should be on a strict timer. You've got X Y Z seconds to form linout, scrum, take kick. If you don't make it, free kick to the opposition. If one of your player's is down, tough shit, carry on, no matter what. If it's your hooker or front rower for set piece, free kick to the opposition, or replace the player as the clock stops for replacements. You've got 8 on the bench FFS. Along with implementing 7s still zero tolerance, the game would be much better, faster, less impact and injuries - just get a move on.
As much as it bugs me too, we have to be careful when it comes to stopping for injuries. Player welfare is a biggie. All it needs is for one player to be seriously injured and assistance doesn't reach him on time because of the game situation for rugby to be in the poo.
A disincentive to help stop the fake injury breaks would be good. Maybe something like they have in Soccer. If you go down needing assistance you go to the sideline until next stop in play.
As I said, you go down, time stops, and you must be replaced. If it is not that bad, carry on.
@Machpants said in Time Management in the game:
@Crazy-Horse said in Time Management in the game:
@Machpants said in Time Management in the game:
I totally don't want the clock stopped at all. Everything should be on a strict timer. You've got X Y Z seconds to form linout, scrum, take kick. If you don't make it, free kick to the opposition. If one of your player's is down, tough shit, carry on, no matter what. If it's your hooker or front rower for set piece, free kick to the opposition, or replace the player as the clock stops for replacements. You've got 8 on the bench FFS. Along with implementing 7s still zero tolerance, the game would be much better, faster, less impact and injuries - just get a move on.
As I said, you go down, time stops, and you must be replaced. If it is not that bad, carry on.
But that doesn't stop fake injuries, or exaggeration, in soccer.
You don't have to be replaced if you go down fake in soccer. My rules: If the ref stops time, the player that caused the stop is injured and permanently off. That's it, the injury is either ignored by ref/players, game carries on (just like now) and if you can't action set pices because of it the opposition gets the ball. If the ref has to stop or is asked to stop time then that player is off. No ifs or buts, gone.
