Thoughts on Cane now?
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not sure if this needed a new thread or not
so...thoughts on cane now? dalton has been very good, surely you have to demand your position in the 15 first and foremost
dalton or cane?
(i think fozzie will stick with cane if fit)
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@Kiwiwomble. I think you need both in the squad. Horses for courses. I can maybe see Co captains next year. If one of them starts then the other is on the bench. If Ardie gets injured then I would want to start both.
All Blacks lack vocal leadership at times. I think Cane adds that.
Big thing for me is the leadership being well covered through 80 minutes. So plan to have either Cane or Whitelock or both playing in the closing stages.
I think we are lacking a little in backline leadership currently so do want Beauden at 15 to direct that, especially if Cane is not on the field. -
@ARHS squad definitely....but who gets the 7 jersey for a knock out game?
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Interesting question. Some random thoughts...
Captaincy
Well, there was little wrong with his captaincy. The Cane is a poor leader, Whitelock or Savea would be so much better calls look a little different after the hapless final ten minutes at Twickenham.Though it's likely proof that there's little wrong with the captaincy of either Cane or Whitelock, and the All Blacks malaise runs deeper again...
Fitness
Will he be fit? I suspect he's now in the Dane Coles category of "theoretically fit, increasingly unavailable", so it may all be moot...What should they do with Cane?
Once fit, he's still among the best loose forwards in the country to include in a squad of 30. Ideally, have him available, without the pressure of the captaincy (maybe co-captaincy?), injuries, and 'having' to start matches. He and Papalii are both quite handy to have available if the other one was injured...Or a different role in the squad. Cane couldn't have done any worse off the bench onto the blindside than Frizzell did yesterday.
What will Foster probably do?
Put on a ton of pressure on, send the Blues fans nuclear, and make Cane captain and starting #7 again?Will be interesting to see what Super rugby brings...
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Foster will stick with Cane, he only drops the ‘tried and true’ if forced to. Dalton should totally take Cane’s place, and Sam is really not even in the 23. Same can take over the Kevvie role of squad boss/Daddy, maybe, but he has been totally outplayed on the field.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Sam Cane goooorn:
@ARHS squad definitely....but who gets the 7 jersey for a knock out game?
Horses for courses and with qf sf final in their targets you might rotate the starter to get the best out of them. I might start Cane v South Africa or England and Paps v Australia or Ireland currently.
I. E. I don't think it is clearcut enough to burn off either and I want both involved. -
@Donsteppa said in Thoughts on cane now?:
Interesting question. Some random thoughts...
Captaincy
Well, there was little wrong with his captaincy. The Cane is a poor leader, Whitelock or Savea would be so much better calls look a little different after the hapless final ten minutes at Twickenham.Though it's likely proof that there's little wrong with the captaincy of either Cane or Whitelock, and the All Blacks malaise runs deeper again...
Fitness
Will he be fit? I suspect he's now in the Dane Coles category of "theoretically fit, increasingly unavailable", so it may all be moot...What should they do with Cane?
Once fit, he's still among the best loose forwards in the country to include in a squad of 30. Ideally, have him available, without the pressure of the captaincy (maybe co-captaincy?), injuries, and 'having' to start matches. He and Papalii are both quite handy to have available if the other one was injured...Or a different role in the squad. Cane couldn't have done any worse off the bench onto the blindside than Frizzell did yesterday.
What will Foster probably do?
Put on a ton of pressure on, send the Blues fans nuclear, and make Cane captain and starting #7 again?Will be interesting to see what Super rugby brings...
yeah, i feel there are lots of examples of players finding the captaincy too much and performing better without it, cane might be one of them
agreed i think hes a good captain, i just come firmly from the school you have to earn your spot in the 15 first and foremost
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@Donsteppa McMillan might be better to either name co-captains again, or not put the pressure on Cane at the Chiefs and choose someone else. If he gets injured again you need another captain anyway.
Remember that Brewer was Mains' choice of captain in 1992 but injury changed circumstances for that team.
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@Bovidae said in Thoughts on cane now?:
@Donsteppa McMillan might be better to either name co-captains again, or not put the pressure on Cane at the Chiefs and choose someone else. If he gets injured again you need another captain anyway.
Remember that Brewer was Mains' choice of captain in 1992 but injury changed circumstances for that team.
Andy Dalton says hi
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dalton had a couple of good games at end of the year. earlier he was not poor but not to the level he played on EOYT.
for me super rugby and begning of AB season will tell
we are better of with both in form and battling it out -
Papalii has been excellent every time he has started at 7. Exactly the same as last year, even with having to overcome his surgery.
He starts at 7 in every significant game. Anything else would be insane. So much better than any other option in NZ.
Cane should be competing with Blackadder for a squad position.
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@Tim said in Thoughts on cane now?:
He starts at 7 in every significant game. Anything else would be insane. So much better than any other option in NZ.
so you expect fozzie to start cane then
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i fully expect Cane to start when he is fit. Because AB coaches and selectors are super conservative, and have been for a long time (far longer than Foster). Incumbency trumps everything, and players are seemingly always brought back. It also takes a huge amount for core guys to not get picked.
On one hand, this attitude has its merits. But i feel the drawback is, to be a core guy in the ABs you are going to be a pretty fucking good player, and this means you are unlikely to send in a run of absolute stinkers that force the hand. Rather there will a micro-drop off that allows you to maintain your spot, even if another guy could take us up a level.
It's the same reason i think Moody will start the first test next year despite me having to really think hard to remember he even exists.
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@mariner4life said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
i fully expect Cane to start when he is fit. Because AB coaches and selectors are super conservative, and have been for a long time (far longer than Foster). Incumbency trumps everything, and players are seemingly always brought back. It also takes a huge amount for core guys to not get picked.
On one hand, this attitude has its merits. But i feel the drawback is, to be a core guy in the ABs you are going to be a pretty fucking good player, and this means you are unlikely to send in a run of absolute stinkers that force the hand. Rather there will a micro-drop off that allows you to maintain your spot, even if another guy could take us up a level.
It's the same reason i think Moody will start the first test next year despite me having to really think hard to remember he even exists.
Funnily enough, WC years tend to bring the coaches to the point where they need to make the hard decision.
I think Moody became number one in 2015 (after not even being picked in the original squad) and Izzy Dagg overtook Mils (also at the tournament in 2011 @booboo you pedantic bastard). So, we can have some big changes, but it will be interesting to see who gets the opportunities.
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Given Cane's injury history it will probably be a mute point anyway.
I've not been a fan of SB, but that backrow balance against England was pretty damn 🤌.
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Haven’t read the thread. But freshly squeezed with white rum, line juice, soda water and mint makes a splendid mojito.
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I like Cane, I think he's a solid leader that the AB's have invested alot in. He's been brought through the grades and groomed for captaincy. He's a solid player, gives an honest effort everytime he plays.
The question is whether is he's the best 7 now in NZ? Given Dalton Papali'i form over the EOYT I would say not. If he can't command a starting place in the team then he shouldn't be captain. Harsh but the realities of professional sport. Absolutely he should be in the squad but he'll need to focus on winning his spot first.
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@TheMojoman i think especially goven how much "leadership" there will probably be between BBBR/Whitelock/smith/Savea/BB
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If next year wasn’t a RWC year then I would say play Dalton as much as possible, but I suspect that Cane’s super rugby time will be managed within the minute to give him every opportunity to get right and ready for the RWC.
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@Billy-Tell said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
Haven’t read the thread. But freshly squeezed with white rum, line juice, soda water and mint makes a splendid mojito.
I prefer just fermenting it, add some sugar & lime... lovely caipirinha.
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@Donsteppa said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
Or a different role in the squad. Cane couldn't have done any worse off the bench onto the blindside than Frizzell did yesterday.
I can never quite understand why Cane hasn't played at 6. Sure there's a reason but can't remember what it is.
Overall, I think it's horses for courses with Cane being stronger defensively than Paps with the latter being better at the breakdown
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Donsteppa said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
Or a different role in the squad. Cane couldn't have done any worse off the bench onto the blindside than Frizzell did yesterday.
I can never quite understand why Cane hasn't played at 6. Sure there's a reason but can't remember what it is.
Overall, I think it's horses for courses with Cane being stronger defensively than Paps with the latter being better at the breakdown
Good point. Cane isn't exactly a fetcher anymore, he is still strong in a tackle and can run the ball up. He would add to his value if he could play either spot and if one of the locks was injured or rested you could play scooter at lock with a DP Ardie Cane back row
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@canefan said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Donsteppa said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
Or a different role in the squad. Cane couldn't have done any worse off the bench onto the blindside than Frizzell did yesterday.
I can never quite understand why Cane hasn't played at 6. Sure there's a reason but can't remember what it is.
Overall, I think it's horses for courses with Cane being stronger defensively than Paps with the latter being better at the breakdown
Good point. Cane isn't exactly a fetcher anymore, he is still strong in a tackle and can run the ball up. He would add to his value if he could play either spot and if one of the locks was injured or rested you could play scooter at lock with a DP Ardie Cane back row
He's a big enough hitter, has a big motor and more than mobile enough to be really effective at 6. Seems a natural move so I wonder why it just hasn't happened. Has he played there much at Super level?
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@Victor-Meldrew I think the few times at AB level they ran Cane & Savea at 6/7, it was Savea that played the 'traditional' 6 role.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
I can never quite understand why Cane hasn't played at 6. Sure there's a reason but can't remember what it is.
Overall, I think it's horses for courses with Cane being stronger defensively than Paps with the latter being better at the breakdownI'm not sure Cane is, sometimes he misses more but his top tackles may be more
destructive yet he doesn't make as many.
Early in his AB career I think he came off bench as 6 or 8 briefly? -
I've been saying for a while Cane these days better suits the 6 jumper.
Cane, Dalton, Savea back row would be good, although you lose a line out option compared to Frizzell or Barrett at 6.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
He's a big enough hitter, has a big motor and more than mobile enough to be really effective at 6. Seems a natural move so I wonder why it just hasn't happened. Has he played there much at Super level?
He did occasionally move to no.8 for the Chiefs a few seasons ago, but I don't remember much time at 6. There were other loose forwards better suited to that role.
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@taniwharugby said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Victor-Meldrew I think the few times at AB level they ran Cane & Savea at 6/7, it was Savea that played the 'traditional' 6 role.
when has savea played 6, i honestly cant remember
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@Kiwiwomble said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@taniwharugby said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Victor-Meldrew I think the few times at AB level they ran Cane & Savea at 6/7, it was Savea that played the 'traditional' 6 role.
when has savea played 6, i honestly cant remember
Most of 2019 for a start, Ardie, Cane, Read
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@Machpants said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Kiwiwomble said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@taniwharugby said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Victor-Meldrew I think the few times at AB level they ran Cane & Savea at 6/7, it was Savea that played the 'traditional' 6 role.
when has savea played 6, i honestly cant remember
Most of 2019 for a start, Ardie, Cane, Read
...including the RWC Qaurter against Ireland!
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@Kiwiwomble said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@taniwharugby said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Victor-Meldrew I think the few times at AB level they ran Cane & Savea at 6/7, it was Savea that played the 'traditional' 6 role.
when has savea played 6, i honestly cant remember
Five starts at 6:
10 August 2019 v Australia (Perth)
17 August 2019 v Australia (Auckland)
7 September 2019 v Tonga (Hamilton)
21 September 2019 v South Africa (Yokohama)
19 October 2019 v Ireland (Yokohama) -
ok, so one stretch of games in 2019 including the RWC...great time to try something pretty new
edit: to be clear, i wasn't doubting it, i just couldn't remember the last time
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@Kiwiwomble well the following week they tried somethign even more radical in dropping our best defender and moving a lock to 6 and starting a not really match fit BR
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Cane, DP and Savea is a really terrible loose forward trio at the lineout.
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@foobaNZ said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
I've been saying for a while Cane these days better suits the 6 jumper.
Cane, Dalton, Savea back row would be good, although you lose a line out option compared to Frizzell or Barrett at 6.
Not for me, not this close to a World Cup. Cane shouldn't be in the top 23 but he will be because he is captain when he isn't injured.
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That fact that Cane is still in contention really sums up all that is wrong with the ABs now. It is almost impossible to be dropped if you are one of the leadership group. Cane has been an amazing player who has obvious mana in the AB group. But he is so far off the pace as a player now, he should be struggling to get game time at the Chiefs.
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@Canes4life yea I don't disagree with that. A shame we're this close to the WC and still haven't found an outstanding out and out 6.
I thought Akira would be the answer but he struggles against the big boy international teams.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
That fact that Cane is still in contention really sums up all that is wrong with the ABs now. It is almost impossible to be dropped if you are one of the leadership group. Cane has been an amazing player who has obvious mana in the AB group. But he is so far off the pace as a player now, he should be struggling to get game time at the Chiefs.
That is a fern-special over-egged post, well played.
He's still pretty clearly our best 7 at the Chiefs and should be co-captain.
I think I was one of the first to argue that Paps was the new Cane, and I'm happy to see him take Cane's spot on form. With Whitelock there, we don't need his captaincy.
Strangely, this could be the WC to bring Cane off the bench, they were just four years too early on that call.
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@gt12 said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
With Whitelock there, we don't need his captaincy.
If he hadn't taken his sabbatical to Japan, he would have been a strong contendor to get the nod to captain, right?
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@foobaNZ we have, Blackadder.
