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@gollum said in Ferners in London:
Also worth noting that at its height over a quarter of Germans expressed support of some degree for the BMG....
Not exactly. A quarter of Germans under the age of 40. And that was when they were gunning for the establishment. I somehow doubt that they would have enjoyed anything like that support if they were driving lorries into civilians at the Christmas markets.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Ferners in London:
@gollum said in Ferners in London:
Also worth noting that at its height over a quarter of Germans expressed support of some degree for the BMG....
Not exactly. A quarter of Germans under the age of 40. And that was when they were gunning for the establishment. I somehow doubt that they would have enjoyed anything like that support if they were driving lorries into civilians at the Christmas markets.
Sure, but my point was (as the graph from Nick pointed out) the 70's & 80's in Europe were a far more dangerous time for terror than now. Because there were terror groups supported by huge chunks of the population, heaviliy armed, well trained.
In contrast to now. So I'm not sure how your comment re xmas markets is vaild? Unless its to explain why we are safer now - as the public very much do not support the current lot in any meaningful way? Thats an excellent point
In which case I fully agree with you. We are much,, much safer now yes.
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If it's worth anything I have less fear of getting caught up in something horrible in London today as I did when here in the 80s.
Between the pickpockets, football hooligans and IRA there was a quite real sense of any day you had to be on your toes.
They have been replaced by Islamic terrorists that most of the time get stopped before shit goes down. -
Yeah I'm in that bucket too (from the early 90's onwards), there was genuine concern back then re bombs in pubs, then there was that spate of gay nail bombings (Admiral Duncan) that made Soho a pretty scary area. Euston / Kings Cross pubs on big match days were very dicey too.
I literally have zero concern going out anywhere in London now
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@gollum said in Ferners in London:
Yeah I'm in that bucket too (from the early 90's onwards), there was genuine concern back then re bombs in pubs, then there was that spate of gay nail bombings (Admiral Duncan) that made Soho a pretty scary area. Euston / Kings Cross pubs on big match days were very dicey too.
I literally have zero concern going out anywhere in London now
I wouldn't say zero concern but I do remember back in the 80s thinking it wasn't the safest place to be. Even things like the Kings Cross fire would be unlikely now.
As I said earlier, I keep my eyes and ears open without being on edge and any whiff of trouble I get the hell out of there.
I was changing lines at Paddington one day and the alarms started. I was out of there quick time and plenty of people were just dawdling unconcerned. Sorry, but an alarm when I am in one of those rabbit warrens makes me want out damn fast. -
@NTA said in Ferners in London:
@Catogrande said in Ferners in London:
You would also have to assume that back in the 70's and 80's the security forces were working hard in pre-empting IRA threats.
I'm sure posting that made Catherine feel quite proud of herself but it's fairly trite . You can't really compare the IRA with ISIS etc and then try and pretend there's no issue with Islam because the IRA behaved like fluffybunnies.
Also while we are on the subject Martin McGuiness passing this week was long overdue.
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Jeez there is a shit load of 'whataboutery' in this thread......
But I guess it is ok when it suits your argument, just not when the other guys do it... -
@jegga said in Ferners in London:
@NTA said in Ferners in London:
@Catogrande said in Ferners in London:
You would also have to assume that back in the 70's and 80's the security forces were working hard in pre-empting IRA threats.
I'm sure posting that made Catherine feel quite proud of herself but it's fairly trite . You can't really compare the IRA with ISIS etc and then try and pretend there's no issue with Islam because the IRA behaved like fluffybunnies.
Also while we are on the subject Martin McGuiness passing this week was long overdue.
And there was a widespread discussions and condemnation of the ideology behind the attacks.
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@gollum said in Ferners in London:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Ferners in London:
@gollum said in Ferners in London:
Also worth noting that at its height over a quarter of Germans expressed support of some degree for the BMG....
Not exactly. A quarter of Germans under the age of 40. And that was when they were gunning for the establishment. I somehow doubt that they would have enjoyed anything like that support if they were driving lorries into civilians at the Christmas markets.
Sure, but my point was (as the graph from Nick pointed out) the 70's & 80's in Europe were a far more dangerous time for terror than now. Because there were terror groups supported by huge chunks of the population, heaviliy armed, well trained.
In contrast to now. So I'm not sure how your comment re xmas markets is vaild? Unless its to explain why we are safer now - as the public very much do not support the current lot in any meaningful way? Thats an excellent point
In which case I fully agree with you. We are much,, much safer now yes.
If we're safer now, then a massive reason for that is the security and intelligence services, not that terrorism is any less of a threat.
As much as you like to wank on about Baader Meinhoff, they never targeted civilians like the Islamic crazies. They never drove lorries into crowds celebrating national day and at the Christmas markets. The current lot will literary strike at any target and at anyone. And the scary thing is, a guy can be recruited and even trained from his bedroom.
But yeah, I'm sure you not considering there to be any threat is great comfort to the poor bastards who were murdered yesterday, not to mention anyone who has been blown up or gunned down by this phenomenon that only an idiot would be concerned about.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Ferners in London:
@gollum said in Ferners in London:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Ferners in London:
@gollum said in Ferners in London:
Also worth noting that at its height over a quarter of Germans expressed support of some degree for the BMG....
Not exactly. A quarter of Germans under the age of 40. And that was when they were gunning for the establishment. I somehow doubt that they would have enjoyed anything like that support if they were driving lorries into civilians at the Christmas markets.
Sure, but my point was (as the graph from Nick pointed out) the 70's & 80's in Europe were a far more dangerous time for terror than now. Because there were terror groups supported by huge chunks of the population, heaviliy armed, well trained.
In contrast to now. So I'm not sure how your comment re xmas markets is vaild? Unless its to explain why we are safer now - as the public very much do not support the current lot in any meaningful way? Thats an excellent point
In which case I fully agree with you. We are much,, much safer now yes.
And the scary thing is, a guy can be recruited and even trained from his bedroom.
Or simply inspired by stuff he sees in the media or on the internet, doesn't even need to have had contact with anyone.
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@taniwharugby said in Ferners in London:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Ferners in London:
@gollum said in Ferners in London:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Ferners in London:
@gollum said in Ferners in London:
Also worth noting that at its height over a quarter of Germans expressed support of some degree for the BMG....
Not exactly. A quarter of Germans under the age of 40. And that was when they were gunning for the establishment. I somehow doubt that they would have enjoyed anything like that support if they were driving lorries into civilians at the Christmas markets.
Sure, but my point was (as the graph from Nick pointed out) the 70's & 80's in Europe were a far more dangerous time for terror than now. Because there were terror groups supported by huge chunks of the population, heaviliy armed, well trained.
In contrast to now. So I'm not sure how your comment re xmas markets is vaild? Unless its to explain why we are safer now - as the public very much do not support the current lot in any meaningful way? Thats an excellent point
In which case I fully agree with you. We are much,, much safer now yes.
And the scary thing is, a guy can be recruited and even trained from his bedroom.
Or simply inspired by stuff he sees in the media or on the internet, doesn't even need to have had contact with anyone.
Yeah - like fashion bloggers on instagram.
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@taniwharugby said in Ferners in London:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Ferners in London:
@gollum said in Ferners in London:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Ferners in London:
@gollum said in Ferners in London:
Also worth noting that at its height over a quarter of Germans expressed support of some degree for the BMG....
Not exactly. A quarter of Germans under the age of 40. And that was when they were gunning for the establishment. I somehow doubt that they would have enjoyed anything like that support if they were driving lorries into civilians at the Christmas markets.
Sure, but my point was (as the graph from Nick pointed out) the 70's & 80's in Europe were a far more dangerous time for terror than now. Because there were terror groups supported by huge chunks of the population, heaviliy armed, well trained.
In contrast to now. So I'm not sure how your comment re xmas markets is vaild? Unless its to explain why we are safer now - as the public very much do not support the current lot in any meaningful way? Thats an excellent point
In which case I fully agree with you. We are much,, much safer now yes.
And the scary thing is, a guy can be recruited and even trained from his bedroom.
Or simply inspired by stuff he sees in the media or on the internet, doesn't even need to have had contact with anyone.
Why couldn't these cretins stick to using the internet primarily for porn, like the rest of us
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@No-Quarter is that what you tell Mrs NQ when she catches you looking at TSF...sorry babe, I swear I thought I was watching porn!
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Re: all the talk about what the IRA etc did in the past - what the hell does that have to do with this attack? Is that meant to be some sort of comfort to the victims? It's completely fucking irrelevant to this discussion.
What we have today is a groups like ISIS inspired by Islam pushing that ideology with the use of political violence. Why is that so hard to admit? Why do so many people immediately jump to the defense of Islam when innocent people have been murdered in cold blood?
As @Baron-Silas-Greenback points out the ideologies behind terrorist groups in the past were roundly criticised. But when it comes to ISIS we have to ignore the toxic ideology they are pushing because racism or something.
It's getting pretty tiresome to be honest. Every attack follows the same pattern. Innocent people slaughtered by someome yelling Allahu Akbar. People say "shit that's horrible, Islam has some serious problems that need addressing". A bunch of other people shout them down with name calling while pointing to other examples of violence that are completely irrelevant. Nothing changes, and then we have the next attack. It's been done to death on here already.
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@No-Quarter said in Ferners in London:
As @Baron-Silas-Greenback points out the ideologies behind terrorist groups in the past were roundly criticised. But when it comes to ISIS we have to ignore the toxic ideology they are pushing because racism or something.
I think there is a difference - first, Catholicism wasn't made out as a hateful ideology in a general sense. Neither was being Irish
The IRA is recognised for what it is: a political organisation using a religious schism as a pretense for hurting others. That's an important point, because the criticism recognises the difference.
Islam, by contrast, has blurry lines between faith vs religion vs ideology. Those are three levels that are fairly easy to slot into place for something like Christianity in modern society.
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@No-Quarter You beat me to it somewhat.
Oh you Europeans, chill out. Don’t worry about Islam, it’s quite benign really. In fact, those damn Catholics were way worse in the 1970s. I’m sure Europeans are taking lots of comfort in graphs showing there are less terrorism-related deaths now than in the 1970s. I’m also pretty sure that currently an Islamic extremist is more dangerous to a European than a statistic.
There’s also a fair bit of not comparing apples with apples in this graph. Islamic extremism operates worldwide whereas the IRA and BMG for example had exclusively European theatres of operation. If we accept that the graph is referring to the IRA’s role in all the deaths caused by The Troubles (3,500 is quoted below), then in fact the IRA targeted Northern Ireland almost exclusively.
ISIS, for example, is actively engaged in civil war in Syria and is probably somewhat distracted on that front from its other activities including funding and managing terrorist cells in Europe. Assuming ISIS retreats from Syria etc, and they begin to target their resources on terror cells in Europe, then perhaps we can compare terrorism deaths in Europe across eras.
The IRA (I know there were a few branches) is effectively defunct having been survived by the political wing, Sinn Fein, which survives today as the third largest political party in Ireland. Many people, while disgusted with the IRA, were optimistic that diplomacy would eventually prevail.
Does anyone imagine that ISIS or other Islamic terror groups will ever have a political wing that you could actually talk to?
Facts from Wiki: about 260 of the roughly 3,500 killed in “The Troubles” occurred outside NI, mostly in Ireland and England. You would probably argue that Irish republicanism is or was most dear to the people who actually lived in the “invaded” land (NI).
BMG killed 34 people in three decades, and its attacks were mostly in Germany (with the odd one in Belgium, Holland and Sweden).
Of course, Islamic extremism is responsible for 3,000 people in a single go on Sep 11. But this “comforting” graph doesn’t recognise that.
Ferners in London