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@NTA said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
Well look at it this way. Do you think people would be protesting a Hindu, Buddhist or Sikh temple or a synagogue?
That's not really making the argument for "rational" either. And it depends entirely on whether there is cause to or whether it is likely to harm someone
Particularly if you're in a community like Bendigo (pop 110k) that has a limited Muslim population (quoted as "over 300"), and whose plans for the Mosque passed through LGA and various tribunals all the way to the High Court of Victoria.
It has passed the test of Law. There is no recourse until they have proof that hate speech is occurring in this mosque.
Presumption of innocence is part of sharia law as well, incidentally.
I very much doubt it. So the question is why they would be against a mosque. Is it a phobia or perhaps something else?
I'd suggest, if they can't pin it down better than "something else", its closer to irrational. But I know what you mean.
If people aren't willing to give someone else a fair go, based on the actions of someone else who believes something similar to them, you're basically ripping the head off integration and shitting down its neck.
Another question for you Nick. Would you happily accept having a big mosque built in your street or in close proximity to your street?
If it wasn't breaching any Council laws, it would just be the same as any other place of worship to me i.e. retarded in my view, but hardly going to spoil my day.
Unless its blocking my solar panels
Spoiler alert: I live about 7km as the crow flies from one of the biggest mosques in Sydney (and therefore Oceania). But they're Adhmadi so they don't get the same rap as Sunnis running the other mosques.
Nice way of ignoring why there would be no objections to other places of worship. Explain that and you get to the absolute core of the issue.
Here's the thing Nick. People see the appalling shit committed daily in the name of Islam. They see the terrorism committed by young men who have been radicalised in mosques. They see the freedom sacks, the head scarves and burqinis. They see the treatment of women and gays. They see the types of attitudes or beliefs that were out of date even when their grandparents were young. The see a culture that is completely at odds with their own.
So given that, can you blame them at all for erring on the side of caution?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
So given that, can you blame them at all for erring on the side of caution?
No. If you're only going to take the very worst, then no. Can't blame them at all. Its new and scary and easy to assume the worst, based on what they see and are satisfied with. I grew up in smalltown Australia and mistrust of the new is a way of life.
I'm not saying Islam is 100% right and should be left completely to its own devices. But you're not going to assist in reform or assimilation at any level if you keep marginalising it through ignorance and fear.
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@NTA said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
So given that, can you blame them at all for erring on the side of caution?
No. If you're only going to take the very worst, then no. Can't blame them at all. Its new and scary and easy to assume the worst, based on what they see and are satisfied with. I grew up in smalltown Australia and mistrust of the new is a way of life.
I'm not saying Islam is 100% right and should be left completely to its own devices. But you're not going to assist in reform or assimilation at any level if you keep marginalising it through ignorance and fear.
You think Islam will reform or assimilate if they allow a mosque to be built in Bendigo? When has Islam been shown to reform or assimilate in any of the dozens of towns and cities in western nations that have permitted mosques to be built?
And again, why would there likely be no objection to places of worship of other faith? Why does this ignorance and fear only apply to Muslims?
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@NTA said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
So given that, can you blame them at all for erring on the side of caution?
No. If you're only going to take the very worst, then no. Can't blame them at all. Its new and scary and easy to assume the worst, based on what they see and are satisfied with. I grew up in smalltown Australia and mistrust of the new is a way of life.
I'm not saying Islam is 100% right and should be left completely to its own devices. But you're not going to assist in reform or assimilation at any level if you keep marginalising it through ignorance and fear.
I think the awful treatment of women by Muslims is not constrained to their worst/extremes.
My observation is that sort of treatment is commonplace.
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Yup, I'm pretty sick of the arguments that claim "ignorance" is why people don't like Islam, or that it's a religion we in the west could never understand.
It's not difficult to understand what happens in Muslim majority countries. The situation for women and homosexuals, among other people, is fucking dire largely due to the teachings of the Koran. It's not unreasonable at all for people in western countries to oppose the spread of such a toxic, backwards ideology in their own back yard. Ignorance has nothing to do with it, in fact quite the opposite, the more you learn about Islam the more you should oppose it.
And as @Baron-Silas-Greenback the line between moderate Muslim and fundamentalist Muslim is blurred at best.
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This post is deleted!
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I liked this comment
"A common argument that “Useful Infidels” (Useful idiots) raise when they want to ignore bad things happening because of Islam is to shut down those pointing the problem out by saying. ” But not all Muslims do that.” It is an argument that attacks a straw man as those condemning these problems have never and will never claim that all Muslims are responsible or that all Muslims think that way. The reality is that “Useful infidels” who make that comment do not care about the people who are being affected or hurt. In their warped world view, they will not care until ALL Muslims are responsible which means of course that they will never care."
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback no, they don't say that all muslims do XYZ, but they do say that all islam must be stopped. i.e. a mosque can't be built in bendigo, no muslim refugees, etc.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
You think Islam will reform or assimilate if they allow a mosque to be built in Bendigo? When has Islam been shown to reform or assimilate in any of the dozens of towns and cities in western nations that have permitted mosques to be built?
do you not think there are moderate muslims in western countries, who lead relatively normal lives and play a normal role in society? or do they not count somehow? is SBW not assimilated?
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@reprobate said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback no, they don't say that all muslims do XYZ, but they do say that all islam must be stopped. i.e. a mosque can't be built in bendigo, no muslim refugees, etc.
And what exactly is wrong with attacking an aggressive ideology that hates the western way of life??
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback
do you see the irony in making that 'not all muslims' post and then stating that the ideology as a whole is a problem? does SBW hate the western way of life? must he be stopped for us to be safe in our homes? -
@reprobate said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback
do you see the irony in making that 'not all muslims' post and then stating that the ideology as a whole is a problem? does SBW hate the western way of life? must he be stopped for us to be safe in our homes?There is no irony. Some Muslims dont follow the ideology as strictly as others. Pretty self evident I would have thought. If some Muslims wont voluntarily abandon the nasty side of an ideology, they should be forced to, or forced to leave.
And give up trying to create a straw man with SBW.
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@reprobate said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
You think Islam will reform or assimilate if they allow a mosque to be built in Bendigo? When has Islam been shown to reform or assimilate in any of the dozens of towns and cities in western nations that have permitted mosques to be built?
do you not think there are moderate muslims in western countries, who lead relatively normal lives and play a normal role in society? or do they not count somehow? is SBW not assimilated?
What on earth does that have to do with what I wrote? Did you even read the quote you responded to?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel you implied that it was not possible for Muslims to be part of western society, 'when has Islam ever... assimilated'. i gave an example, known to all on this site, to the contrary.
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@reprobate said in The Failed policy of Multiculturalism:
@Rancid-Schnitzel you implied that it was not possible for Muslims to be part of western society, 'when has Islam ever... assimilated'. i gave an example, known to all on this site, to the contrary.
I fucking did not. For Christ sake, read the entire discussion rather than cherry picking sentences that trigger you.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel okay, i guess I'm misunderstanding then
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@reprobate SBW is an interesting example. Obviously he didn't assimilate as he is from Auckland but putting that aside his recent actions indicate he is starting to go against aspects of Western life as he moves more towards the fundamental teachings of Islam. He went against his own team and employer by taping over their most important sponsors logo not because of some moral objection, but because charging interest is forbidden in Islam. He is now also associating with preachers like Menk who are on record as saying "homosexuals are worse than animals" despite gay rights being hugely important in NZ. It will be interesting to see where he is in another 10 years, and if his name is still Sonny.
And that is the problem with Islam. It's important to separate the people from the ideology. By that I mean Islam and Sharia Law are not compatible with Western Democracy and Western law. They are completely at odds with each other, and in my opinion (which is supported by a mountain of evidence) Western Democracy and Western Law are far superior.
The only way that Muslims are able to successfully assimilate into Western society is if they modify Islam to conform to Western Law. The people you call "moderate Muslims" are more accurately described as modifiers. They choose to disregard a lot of the passages of the Koran and by doing so do not accurately represent Islam.
I am very comfortable opposing the spread of Islam in Western countries, as 1) I (we) cannot rely on those that choose to follow the Koran to omit the abhorrent passages and 2) there will always, always be those that don't. Which gives rise to terrorism, pushing an idea through the use of violence and intimidation, which is one of the worst things imaginable when you consider what Western values are built on (I.E freedom of speech).
This is a great article that helps to articulate what I am talking about, I would encourage you to have a read:
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You called?
The Failed policy of Multiculturalism