Vegas Shooting
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Have been too busy to post until now but wanted to add a few thoughts:
First off, the terrorism discussion. I know there are plenty of people convinced that they have not yet labelled this as an act of terrorism because the perpetrator is white (because skin colour means absolutely fucking everything to these people). This is obviously complete nonsense, the only reason they haven't labelled it yet is because the motives are not immediately obvious. Definitions are important, before mouthing off about terrorism the least people could do is google the fucking definition. It's easy to label the Islamist's as terrorists because they scream their motives at the top of their lungs while committing the act.
Also, any and all comparisons between this and Islamic terrorism are completely meaningless and irrelevant. None of the comments about the need to tighten immigration and clamp down on Mosque's preaching Wahhabi Islam are suddenly made irrelevant because a non-Muslim committed a mass murder. These are two distinct issues, with different solutions - comparisons like "more people killed by white people than Muslims!!" are unhelpful and mind-numbingly stupid.
Next, gun control. As a couple of people have already pointed out, the issues in the States are less about gun control and more about culture. There is an estimated 1.2 million guns in circulation in NZ, though police admit they have lost control of the actual figures, and the weapons used to carry out for example the Port Arthur massacre are not that hard to get hold of. So it's not like NZ has no guns, in fact we have a pretty high rate of gun ownership given our population, but we don't have anywhere near the gun-related homicides of other countries like the States.
In saying that, I'm all for tightening up the laws for gun ownership where possible. It's unlikely to stop someone like this who is already so far outside the law, but it may help reduce shootings where people get the 'red mist' and have a gun on hand, or when kids get hold of their parents weapons. There's an argument to be made there for sure, but at the end of the day if someone has the intent to kill as many innocent people as possible they're going to find a way. 86 people died in Nice thanks to a nutter using a truck as his weapon. So treating "gun laws" as a silver bullet to this problem is way over simplifying it.
At this stage we have to wait for more information to come out of the Police investigation, though I doubt we'll get answers quickly as they'll want to be as thorough as possible. It's really difficult for people to get their head around what would motivate an attack like this, so naturally people want answers and will start speculating immediately.
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@no-quarter The voice of reason. Are you sue you're in the right place?
Good post mate.
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@chris-b said in Vegas Shooting:
@taniwharugby said in Vegas Shooting:
@donsteppa yeah not many on the places you'd want to live list...although if you are single Venezuela and Columbia do have some hotties, but not sure that off-sets the risk to ones life....
I went to Colombia in 1994 for an international meeting in Cartagena - about six months after Escobar was killed. We had a field trip escorted by the heavily armed Colombian army.
Cartagena was fine, but everyone told me that you'd never want to go near Medellin - the "most dangerous city in the world". They reckoned taxis wouldn't pick up white people because the only white people who would be stupid enough to visit were DEA agents and the taxis pretty much knew they'd be machine gunned with a white passenger.
So time to leave came and I caught my flight to Bogota (the capital) to get out. Got three-quarters of the way there and the captain announced that Bogota airport was closed due to fog and we would be diverting....to Medellin! I scanned the aisles and for whatever reason, it seemed none of my meeting compadres were on the plane with me.
Anyway, wet ending to the story - but, I had a fucking nervous 90 minutes in Medellin airport before Bogota re-opened and we were flown onwards.
I spent a few days in Medellin 10 years back - all of Colombia was much safer by then (unless you really went out of your way, avoiding military roadblocks/etc, to go to super dodgy areas - where FARC was active), but people in Medellin still looked nervous as hell whenever you heard a motorbike going past. Apparently motorbike drivebys were all the rage back in the day.
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@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
@no-quarter The voice of reason. Are you sue you're in the right place?
Good post mate.
Don't go anywhere near twitter right now mate! You will lose all hope in humanity...
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More American civilians have died by gunfire in the past decade than all Americans killed in combat in World War II (long read, older article)
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@stockcar86 There are so many depressing stats within that article.
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An older article which looks at how the NRA hijacked the second amendment https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/so-you-think-you-know-the-second-amendment/amp
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@nta said in Vegas Shooting:
@dogmeat does it depend whether we're talking "shooting" versus "mass shooting" though?
Its pretty fucking sad when your murder by gun rate is the lowest its been, and you're still seeing thousands per year.
Chicago -- the gun-free zone -- accounts for over 4,000 shooting incidents last year alone with almost 800 fatalities. That's one city -- a "gun-free zone" -- with a population smaller than NZ. More Chicagoans haved died by firearms in their "gun-free zone" over the past 15 years than American GIs haved died in Iraq over same period.
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@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
The FBI has spent the better part of the past year throwing all their resources investigating Putin stole the election and Drumpf colluded with the evil Rooskies -- just be patient, throw some more money and special prosecutors in our direction and we'll find the smoking gun any month now...
...Yet they took all of an hour to declare this psycho Vegas sniper had zero connection to any terrorist organization.
Who, me, skeptical...?
Well, as a rule the terrorist organisations like to advertise their involvement in such cases..
Wh, me, realistic?
ISIS took responsibility. Not once. Not twice. At least four times. They're insisting on it. Does that make it believable? Nope. But media report ISIS press releases all the time as if they are real. So there ya go. FBI heard the admission, and went, nah.
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@donsteppa said in Vegas Shooting:
Some interesting countries that the USA is better than...
Amazing how the most brutal nations are on a land bridge to USA. America could confiscate and outlaw the sale of every firearm in the land, but unless you can completely prevent the trade of human trafficking, you're likely going to find the trade of firearms equally difficult to stop, and that's being generous 'cos firearms are easier to smuggle.
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@salacious-crumb if you want to take this quote from the FBI and twist it to fit your theories go ahead but it is pretty clear to me.
Speaking at a news conference, Special Agent in Charge Aaron Rouse said: “As this event unfolds we have determined at this point no connection with an international terrorist group.”
I have tried to bold the relevant part.
This was during the initial press conference naming the gunman. -
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
The FBI has spent the better part of the past year throwing all their resources investigating Putin stole the election and Drumpf colluded with the evil Rooskies -- just be patient, throw some more money and special prosecutors in our direction and we'll find the smoking gun any month now...
...Yet they took all of an hour to declare this psycho Vegas sniper had zero connection to any terrorist organization.
Who, me, skeptical...?
Well, as a rule the terrorist organisations like to advertise their involvement in such cases..
Wh, me, realistic?
ISIS took responsibility. Not once. Not twice. At least four times. They're insisting on it. Does that make it believable? Nope. But media report ISIS press releases all the time as if they are real. So there ya go. FBI heard the admission, and went, nah.
ISIS putting their hand up to it amounts to diddly squat. I know this, the FBI know this and I'm pretty sure you know this. If the perp had left any related evidence on site or had even shouted Allah Akbar (spelling), then perhaps your scepticism might be better placed on this thread rather than the conspiracy theory one.
As someone else said earlier ISIS would claim responsibility for Tom Petty's heart attack if they though it had traction.
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@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
Well, as a rule the terrorist organisations like to advertise their involvement in such cases..
Islamic state claims Las Vegas shooting, says attacker recent convert to Islam
by Reuters
Monday, 2 October 2017 14:15 GMTCAIRO, Oct 2 (Reuters) - Islamic State has claimed responsibility for a shooting that killed at least 50 people and wounded over 400 in Las Vegas early on Monday, and said the attacker had converted to Islam a few months ago.
"The Las Vegas attack was carried out by a soldier of the Islamic State and he carried it out in response to calls to target states of the coalition," the group's news agency Amaq said in reference to the U.S.-led coalition fighting the group in the Middle East.
"The Las Vegas attacker converted to Islam a few months ago," Amaq added. (Reporting by Ali Abdelaty; Writing by Arwa Gaballa; Editing by Ahmed Aboulenein)
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@salacious-crumb What they say isn't evidence - not by a long way.
My reference to advertising was meant to convey that the actual guys on the ground advertise their involvement. Not so much the taking of responsibility of ISIS which puts even John Terry to shame.
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@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
The FBI has spent the better part of the past year throwing all their resources investigating Putin stole the election and Drumpf colluded with the evil Rooskies -- just be patient, throw some more money and special prosecutors in our direction and we'll find the smoking gun any month now...
...Yet they took all of an hour to declare this psycho Vegas sniper had zero connection to any terrorist organization.
Who, me, skeptical...?
Well, as a rule the terrorist organisations like to advertise their involvement in such cases..
Wh, me, realistic?
ISIS took responsibility. Not once. Not twice. At least four times. They're insisting on it. Does that make it believable? Nope. But media report ISIS press releases all the time as if they are real. So there ya go. FBI heard the admission, and went, nah.
ISIS putting their hand up to it amounts to diddly squat. I know this, the FBI know this and I'm pretty sure you know this. If the perp had left any related evidence on site or had even shouted Allah Akbar (spelling), then perhaps your scepticism might be better placed on this thread rather than the conspiracy theory one.
As someone else said earlier ISIS would claim responsibility for Tom Petty's heart attack if they though it had traction.
Oh, really? It could be a fiction; but it's also worth investigating, and not dismissing out of hand.
Why Did the Islamic State Claim the Las Vegas Shooting?
Assessing the group’s puzzling statement
"...But already I hear a familiar chorus of doubt: The Islamic State will “take credit for anything,” it says, “even hurricanes.”
The doubters do not have a preponderance of prior examples on their side. The Islamic State does not claim natural disasters.
[...]
If they were really so promiscuous with their claims, we would long since have ignored them, as we do claims from other yahoos who have tried to take credit for atrocities authored by others. The idea that the Islamic State simply scans the news in search of mass killings, then sends out press releases in hope of stealing glory, is false.
[...]
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@Salacious-Crumb so @Catogrande hadn't heard the claims from Daesh. That doesn't make your unfounded assumption of the underlying intent of the FBI any more true.
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@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
The FBI has spent the better part of the past year throwing all their resources investigating Putin stole the election and Drumpf colluded with the evil Rooskies -- just be patient, throw some more money and special prosecutors in our direction and we'll find the smoking gun any month now...
...Yet they took all of an hour to declare this psycho Vegas sniper had zero connection to any terrorist organization.
Who, me, skeptical...?
Well, as a rule the terrorist organisations like to advertise their involvement in such cases..
Wh, me, realistic?
ISIS took responsibility. Not once. Not twice. At least four times. They're insisting on it. Does that make it believable? Nope. But media report ISIS press releases all the time as if they are real. So there ya go. FBI heard the admission, and went, nah.
ISIS putting their hand up to it amounts to diddly squat. I know this, the FBI know this and I'm pretty sure you know this. If the perp had left any related evidence on site or had even shouted Allah Akbar (spelling), then perhaps your scepticism might be better placed on this thread rather than the conspiracy theory one.
As someone else said earlier ISIS would claim responsibility for Tom Petty's heart attack if they though it had traction.
Oh, really? It could be a fiction; but it's also worth investigating, and not dismissing out of hand.
Why Did the Islamic State Claim the Las Vegas Shooting?
Assessing the group’s puzzling statement
"...But already I hear a familiar chorus of doubt: The Islamic State will “take credit for anything,” it says, “even hurricanes.”
The doubters do not have a preponderance of prior examples on their side. The Islamic State does not claim natural disasters.
[...]
If they were really so promiscuous with their claims, we would long since have ignored them, as we do claims from other yahoos who have tried to take credit for atrocities authored by others. The idea that the Islamic State simply scans the news in search of mass killings, then sends out press releases in hope of stealing glory, is false.
[...]
It may pay to read that article to its conclusion.
As the facts emerge, we’ll see whether this killing spree ends up reminding us to take Amaq seriously, or demonstrating that its standards have slipped beyond recovery.
Other analysts have interpreted any claim of involvement by ISIS as a sign of desperation due to their ever decreasing caliphate. Trying to create or encourage the use of their name as an attachment to any terror inducing act.
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@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
@catogrande said in Vegas Shooting:
@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
The FBI has spent the better part of the past year throwing all their resources investigating Putin stole the election and Drumpf colluded with the evil Rooskies -- just be patient, throw some more money and special prosecutors in our direction and we'll find the smoking gun any month now...
...Yet they took all of an hour to declare this psycho Vegas sniper had zero connection to any terrorist organization.
Who, me, skeptical...?
Well, as a rule the terrorist organisations like to advertise their involvement in such cases..
Wh, me, realistic?
ISIS took responsibility. Not once. Not twice. At least four times. They're insisting on it. Does that make it believable? Nope. But media report ISIS press releases all the time as if they are real. So there ya go. FBI heard the admission, and went, nah.
ISIS putting their hand up to it amounts to diddly squat. I know this, the FBI know this and I'm pretty sure you know this. If the perp had left any related evidence on site or had even shouted Allah Akbar (spelling), then perhaps your scepticism might be better placed on this thread rather than the conspiracy theory one.
As someone else said earlier ISIS would claim responsibility for Tom Petty's heart attack if they though it had traction.
Oh, really? It could be a fiction; but it's also worth investigating, and not dismissing out of hand.
Why Did the Islamic State Claim the Las Vegas Shooting?
Assessing the group’s puzzling statement
"...But already I hear a familiar chorus of doubt: The Islamic State will “take credit for anything,” it says, “even hurricanes.”
The doubters do not have a preponderance of prior examples on their side. The Islamic State does not claim natural disasters.
[...]
If they were really so promiscuous with their claims, we would long since have ignored them, as we do claims from other yahoos who have tried to take credit for atrocities authored by others. The idea that the Islamic State simply scans the news in search of mass killings, then sends out press releases in hope of stealing glory, is false.
[...]
OK let me requote the salient part (in that it relates to your argument) from my earlier post.
If the perp had left any related evidence on site or had even shouted Allah Akbar (spelling), then perhaps your scepticism might be better placed on this thread rather than the conspiracy theory one.
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@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
@donsteppa said in Vegas Shooting:
Some interesting countries that the USA is better than...
Amazing how the most brutal nations are on a land bridge to USA. America could confiscate and outlaw the sale of every firearm in the land, but unless you can completely prevent the trade of human trafficking, you're likely going to find the trade of firearms equally difficult to stop, and that's being generous 'cos firearms are easier to smuggle.
Given the USA is the largest arms exporter in the world, perhaps the flow goes the other way.