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@crucial said in British Politics:
@no-quarter said in British Politics:
@catogrande said in British Politics:
@no-quarter said in British Politics:
They're very separate issues really. As far as I know there is nothing in the bible excusing or even talking about raping children. No doubt it was systemic in the Catholic church and they have, and still are, doing their utmost to cover it up.
But the idea of taking infidels as sex slaves is stated in many parts of the Qur'an which informs the fundamental teachings these men follow.
There is no official religious order in Islam like there is Catholicism, hence so many interpretations, but the grooming gangs have everything to do with the perpetrators radical religious beliefs. So being anti-Islamist in this case is also eminently reasonable.
I woudn't disagree with any of that but I would point out that, in the case of the grooming gangs in the UK, there doesn't seem to be a problem with any Bangladeshi muslims, Iranian muslims or Indonesian muslims. They are virtually all described as Pakistani muslims. So perhaps it is a cultural as well as religious problem?
Yup, good point, it's without a doubt a cultural thing as well. The two go hand in hand. Doesn't change the fact that one could read the holy book and justify this sort of abhorrent behavior based on what is written though, so there are some pretty serious problems with the ideology.
Can do that with other religious writings as well though. It still comes back to individual behaviour and choices. They may use writings as personal justification but they make the choice.
I guess you could look at it this way - it is easier to justify a raft of abhorrent behavior from the writings in the Qur'an than it is any of the other major religious texts. Which is why we see something like 90% of terrorist attacks being committed in the name of Islam, without even considering the subjugation of women, punishment and killing of homosexuals etc. in so many Muslim majority countries.
I'm not for one minute going to defend any other religion, I detest them all. But Islam is objectively the worst of the lot right now. That's not an opinion, that's a fact based on what is written in the Qur'an and what is playing out in the world today.
You are right about it coming back to individual choices though. I wish everyone would focus on the individual rather than blindly following ideologies whether they be political, religious, or in the case of Islam both.
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When there are also millions of peaceful law abiding followers of the same writings though, I am loathe to blame the religion itself. Plenty of wars and terrible acts committed in the name of Christianity in the past and it comes back to justification.
I doubt that anyone that didn’t want to rape young girls in the first place did so because it was written/interpreted that they could/should.
That’s why these people are expected to follow the law of the land.
I get that there has been a very bad problem with process and people that should be protecting and stopping these situations from from happening aren’t doing so because of the systems in place. That’s a different issue to religion though and I would be much happier to see activists blaming officials rather than religion.
I’m generalising here but it’s a bit of British culture in workplaces still to be a bit of a jobsworth, not take on responsibility and expect others to do things that you may notice. You only have to experience the British concept of customer service to instantly encounter buck passing and ‘not my job’.
Combine this with well meaning but over thought rules of engagement and the inaction over these gangs is inevitable.
Things have over corrected since the bad days of racist policing and the Stephen Lawrence case. Probably not so much the rules themselves but the application of them. -
I posted this before but the problem is pretty specific to one group of Muslims, Mirpuris . In Pakistan they are considered the lowest educated, inbred and most backward hillbillies in the country .
Think about that for a minute.
A lot of them ended up in the Uk post war as some sort of compensation for a dam project in Pakistan and set up their own enclaves where they carried on marrying their cousins and having sex with underage girls. It’s a safe bet wherever these scumbags live there’s a problem with child rape on a huge scale.
Here’s a magnificent rant about them
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2013/11/you-cant-say-that/ -
@crucial said in British Politics:
When there are also millions of peaceful law abiding followers of the same writings though, I am loathe to blame the religion itself. Plenty of wars and terrible acts committed in the name of Christianity in the past and it comes back to justification.
I doubt that anyone that didn’t want to rape young girls in the first place did so because it was written/interpreted that they could/should.
That’s why these people are expected to follow the law of the land.
I get that there has been a very bad problem with process and people that should be protecting and stopping these situations from from happening aren’t doing so because of the systems in place. That’s a different issue to religion though and I would be much happier to see activists blaming officials rather than religion.
I’m generalising here but it’s a bit of British culture in workplaces still to be a bit of a jobsworth, not take on responsibility and expect others to do things that you may notice. You only have to experience the British concept of customer service to instantly encounter buck passing and ‘not my job’.
Combine this with well meaning but over thought rules of engagement and the inaction over these gangs is inevitable.
Things have over corrected since the bad days of racist policing and the Stephen Lawrence case. Probably not so much the rules themselves but the application of them.Most of the Alt-right are peaceful law-abiding citizens. You don't have a problem with their ideology?
It's easy to blame culture and certainly some countries are worse than others when concerning extremism. But the fact that Islamic extremism has attracted people from across multiple cultures, races and walks of life has to be a massive concern. Obviously it is the individual who is responsible in the end, but dismissing the words and creed that they are following as being irrelevant is a very strange position. Comparing modern day Islamic zeolots to the actions of medieval Christian absolute monarchies is just plain weird.
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@jegga said in British Politics:
I posted this before but the problem is pretty specific to one group of Muslims, Mirpuris . In Pakistan they are considered the lowest educated, inbred and most backward hillbillies in the country .
Think about that for a minute.
A lot of them ended up in the Uk post war as some sort of compensation for a dam project in Pakistan and set up their own enclaves where they carried on marrying their cousins and having sex with underage girls. It’s a safe bet wherever these scumbags live there’s a problem with child rape on a huge scale.
Here’s a magnificent rant about them
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2013/11/you-cant-say-that/There you go. You can't criticise the religion and clearly can't criticise the culture. So I guess you just have to pretend there is no problem and bury your head in the sand. Yet that'll work.
This is so ridiculous. It's not about racism or bigotry. It's about stating what the rules and expectations are and then enforcing them. What do people honestly expect the result will be?
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Take the Islam vs Muslim stuff to another thread please.
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So I attended the #FREETOMMY rally in Melbourne this morning, about 250-300 in attendance. And 5 hilarious protesters of the soy-boy variety.
AP had a reporter on the scene whom I recognised from other events. News article wasn't far behind "Free speech rally draws dozens'.. that is a lot of dozens. Naturally news outlets from around the world picked that headline up so 300 is now dozens..whatever..
The London rally is on right now and it looks huge, easily thousands, maybe over 10,000
This thing might have legs.
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"Why are little girls being mutilated and raped while British authorities continue to look the other way?
- Anne Marie Waters
Pretty powerful stuff. I wonder if the government will react?
Have been getting rumours that the Police cancelled the Newcastle event due to a policing shortage with the Ed Sheeran concert on, also that the underground tanoy at the closest London underground station was advising commuters that the London protest had been canned. Cannot verify either at the moment.
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Sorry @Rembrandt, I understand you are passionate about the underlying message but this is plain dumb and totally twists reality.
TR broke the law and admitted it. His actions almost derailed the very convictions he is arguing for so extra stupid on his part.
The authorities are currently doing everything they can to get justice for those girls, including strict enforcement of court reporting so as not to ruin the prosecution.
I don't deny that originally there were system failings and that needs dealing with to stop it happening again. That is well understood by the police.
There was no need for TR to doing what he did except for promoting his own underlying agenda of being anti-islam. This 'protest' smacks of being a group of football hooligans that believe that being British means fitting some image they hold of themselves and without grasp of reality.
How much diversity is in that crowd? Not much. -
Crowds are getting bigger.
And they don’t particularly look like football holligans to me. Okay, so crowds are predominantly white; they’re also individuals with a culture that provided the Magna Carta — a culture with values that attracts migrants from other lands. It could be that they are more invested in protecting their history & culture than newcomers. Doesn’t mean they’re racist.
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@salacious-crumb and freeing TR protects a history how?
As you rightly point out, British history and culture has evolved and changed over hundreds of years through the changing face of it's people. Why are this group so averse to change? Is it because they want everyone to be just like them? And why are they campaigning to free someone whose stirring nearly cost them the justice they seek.
No one does 'White Riot' quite like Engerlaaand!
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@crucial said in British Politics:
Sorry @Rembrandt, I understand you are passionate about the underlying message but this is plain dumb and totally twists reality.
TR broke the law and admitted it. His actions almost derailed the very convictions he is arguing for so extra stupid on his part.
The authorities are currently doing everything they can to get justice for those girls, including strict enforcement of court reporting so as not to ruin the prosecution.
I don't deny that originally there were system failings and that needs dealing with to stop it happening again. That is well understood by the police.
There was no need for TR to doing what he did except for promoting his own underlying agenda of being anti-islam. This 'protest' smacks of being a group of football hooligans that believe that being British means fitting some image they hold of themselves and without grasp of reality.
How much diversity is in that crowd? Not much.And you know that how?
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@crucial said in British Politics:
His actions almost derailed the very convictions he is arguing for so extra stupid on his part.
This I still need to see evidence for. The details were already publicly available and he was reading from the bbc article. I agree he may have crossed a line without realising it but the punishment is far in excess of what the crime was. Still waiting to hear his lawyers defence but at this point it is almost irrelevant people have woken up and are standing up. Black Lives Matter kicked off after a fake story of an unarmed 'Michael Brown' being killed with his hands up, the 2011 London riots had a similar fake narrative, I don't see this as being much different whatever the truth may eventually be.
I don't deny that originally there were system failings and that needs dealing with to stop it happening again. That is well understood by the police.
As Razbra said, evidence suggests more to the contrary. Telford which could be the largest child-rape scandal yet, it only broke this year because of a tabloids investigation (and generally avoided by most mainstream outlets) but had been going on for decades. Authorities turned a blind eye or were involved on some level.
How much diversity is in that crowd? Not much.
Ah the old 'Equality of outcome' argument. If a crowd looks like it is white then therefore it must be purposely excluding other races or is racist.
In your mind what would the colour % distribution (and lets be honest you are only looking at skin colour here) have to be to make this crowd have a valid point?
The UK is 90% white. These muslim rape-gangs didn't care much for today's diversity targets and went for almost exclusively white 'non believer' children as per their religious texts. That alone could account for why you're only seeing 'white' people. To be fair to the child rapists they did also target Sikh kids, the Sikh community have also been very actively involved in these demonstrations often doing speeches at these events.
This isn't a skin colour issue. Its about one specific section of society which is getting preferential treatment over British citizens based off of their religion and a political fear to offend that religion. The end result of that attitude is rape, torture and murder of British citizens and slander and prison for those who dare to call it out as it is.
There is some pretty scary footage of protesters chasing police just coming through, the next rally is in a months time and could very well be bigger. Will be interesting what the government does.
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@rembrandt What exactly are the current protests hoping to achieve? Is it to draw attention to the ongoing and historic abuse cases and the apparent reluctance to address them? Or is it securing freedom for TR?
If it’s the latter, you know that boat has sailed, right? I’ve said before I don’t like the way this was handled at all, but really TR should have taken some legal advice in advance. He should have been advised there was a possibility of being charged with criminal Contempt of Court and that a decision to charge him on that count was solely at the judge’s discretion, independent of what he was originally arrested for. Contempt falls within the jurisdiction of the judge. They decide whether to charge, they decide guilt and they decide the sentence. There’s no requirement for evidence beyond a summary of facts because by definition the judge is deciding for themselves in their own case. There’s no real defence apart from “innocent contempt”, which is saying you didn’t know the case was active, which obviously isn’t the case here, otherwise why was TR there? Then an admission of guilt and it’s over. There is no appeal, obviously, because what would you appeal in such a situation where there are no points of law to argue? Someone really should have told him he was taking a mad risk.
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Almost a fair post @Rembrandt but i take exception to a couple of things.
Firstly, Tommy's sentence is harsh. But it's harsh because he was already on a suspended sentence. Once you take that into account, it's not harsh.
Secondly:
@rembrandt said in British Politics:
Its about one specific section of society which is getting preferential treatment over British citizens based off of their religion and a political fear to offend that religion. The end result of that attitude is rape, torture and murder of British citizens and slander and prison for those who dare to call it out as it is.
This is just not true. Who is getting preferential treatment?
And the last sentence is simply taking 2 different points, putting them together and ignoring everything else to paint an extreme picture which is unrepresentative of the 2 facts.
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@jc said in British Politics:
@rembrandt What exactly are the current protests hoping to achieve? Is it to draw attention to the ongoing and historic abuse cases and the apparent reluctance to address them? Or is it securing freedom for TR?
If it’s the latter, you know that boat has sailed, right? I’ve said before I don’t like the way this was handled at all, but really TR should have taken some legal advice in advance. He should have been advised there was a possibility of being charged with criminal Contempt of Court and that a decision to charge him on that count was solely at the judge’s discretion, independent of what he was originally arrested for. Contempt falls within the jurisdiction of the judge. They decide whether to charge, they decide guilt and they decide the sentence. There’s no requirement for evidence beyond a summary of facts because by definition the judge is deciding for themselves in their own case. There’s no real defence apart from “innocent contempt”, which is saying you didn’t know the case was active, which obviously isn’t the case here, otherwise why was TR there? Then an admission of guilt and it’s over. There is no appeal, obviously, because what would you appeal in such a situation where there are no points of law to argue? Someone really should have told him he was taking a mad risk.
If TR knew all about this and did it anyway he's an idiot and doesn't deserve protests. The law is the law. Hopefully the actual facts will come to light soon.
There must be some kind of comparative case here. Is this the standard punishment when something similar has happened? That is obviously important in TR's case.
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@jc said in British Politics:
@rembrandt What exactly are the current protests hoping to achieve? Is it to draw attention to the ongoing and historic abuse cases and the apparent reluctance to address them? Or is it securing freedom for TR?
I guess that would depend on the protester. I would imagine a combination of both. From my personal point of view its definitely the former and to a lesser extent the creation of political pressure to help with the latter, if not freedom itself at least a much less severe punishment (which could also even be him doing his full sentence but not in a general population which would see him attacked or killed). In an ideal world proper legal representation should accomplish that and awareness of the case will also add to the legal funds at disposal.
I believe that the public awareness of the Dankula case (Nazi pug guy) helped, if not in the minimal sentence handed down then the support for him to fund his fight to appeal the conviction to help prevent the same situation happen to others. Dankula summarises it well here:
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@majorrage It's an additional 10 month sentence added to the suspended 3 month sentence. From what I understand he followed the rules provided to him following the previous conviction (not filming on court property, not filming in the court, only providing publicly available information). I accept that maybe this doesn't exonerate him but will be very curious to see what his legal team says. There is also the element of him not being given access to his own lawyer.
The impression of preferential treatment is for those that follow islam who seem to have added protections and are held to a lesser standard than non-islamic brits at the expense of safety for all British people.This is evidenced by the acceptance of returning jihadis, authorities historical and continual covering up of the child-rape gangs, zero prosecutions for FGM, the allowance of hate-preachers and prosecutions for hate-speech towards Islam. If you like I can provide sourcing for all of this if any of it doesn't ring true.
Of all that I've listed I'd grant you that it is indeed possible that I have just been exposed to extreme examples of the prosecutions for hate speech toward islam and that could be painting a false narrative. This is a very difficult area to prove because generally specific details aren't available ie "Man arrested for offensive tweet" but we don't know what he said. There is a big difference between a credible threat of violence and someone sending a mean meme about Mohammed. There is however a very real misrepresentation of anyone calling out problems in islam as being racist/nazi/far-right/extremist in order to shutdown conversations that really need to be had.
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