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@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
But a referendum is specifically not part of the Westminster tradition.
Neither is ignoring the result when you hold one and promise the electorate you'll implement the result.
The "it's only advisory, it isn't in the Westminster tradition and Parliament is sovereign" points you raise were only trotted out, ad finitum, when the Remain campaign lost.
No matter how much you book-end it, the simple fact remains that a very high % of MPs have openly refused to accept the result of a referendum they themselves called - and that's a very dangerous path to go down
It’s hard to know what’s what. I personally think a lot of MPs who are/were leave, are voting against the deal because they under estimated one of a few things
- The size of the task to leave
- Potential Fallout from no deal
- EU stance and what deal was available
MPs are people as well. Anybody had second thoughts before signing something potentially massive?
All true.
But there's a big difference between having a rational discussion and debate on what type of deal we leave on (or if we leave with no deal) and MPs being open about using every means possible to effectively overturn the referendum result.
It's the sheer stupidity which astounds. They genuinely believe that if Remain wins a second referendum, even narrowly, that will be the end of the matter and politics can go on as before. Cloud cuckoo land
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
All true.
But there's a big difference between having a rational discussion and debate on what type of deal we leave on (or if we leave with no deal) and MPs being open about using every means possible to effectively overturn the referendum result.
It's the sheer stupidity which astounds. They genuinely believe that if Remain wins a second referendum, even narrowly, that will be the end of the matter and politics can go on as before. Cloud cuckoo land
Indeed. I saw an interview with Farage last night. It was proposed to him that Brexit may not go ahead, and he was remarkably sanguine about it. The prior discussion was around extension and all 27 members on the EU side needing to approve it ... so I wonder if he has inside intel that at least 1 isn't going to approve it.
This leaves question for allMP's now, and it's a fucking tough one. Do you vote for a deal which you hate to ensure Brexit goes through ... or do you vote against it, when you know that mens either no-deal leave or withdrawl of article 50. Both which have far reaching consequences.
It should never have got to this point. But it has, and hence that must be debated and discussed.
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@MajorRage said in Brexit:
I saw an interview with Farage last night. It was proposed to him that Brexit may not go ahead, and he was remarkably sanguine about it.
Farage has formed a new party and will know it can inflict some serious damage to both main parties in a future GE - particularly in key Leave voting areas. His view is "the genie is out of the bottle" on the UK's relationship with the EU and is quite content to watch the mainstream parties make idiots of themselves on any withdrawal deal.
Disparaged and insulted by the political establishment for years, he's arguably one of the shrewdest politicians in recent years.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
I saw an interview with Farage last night. It was proposed to him that Brexit may not go ahead, and he was remarkably sanguine about it.
Farage has formed a new party and will know it can inflict some serious damage to both main parties in a future GE - particularly in key Leave voting areas. His view is "the genie is out of the bottle" on the UK's relationship with the EU and is quite content to watch the mainstream parties make idiots of themselves on any withdrawal deal.
Disparaged and insulted by the political establishment for years, he's arguably one of the shrewdest politicians in recent years.
I can't think of anybody in this world who would have spent more time laughing than him over the last 2 years.
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More hilarity from the House of Commons today..... The Second Referendum MPs put an amendment down hoping to win a vote on a "people's vote" - due to be voted on at about 1700.
Having realised they will lose the vote, the "People's Vote" campaign are now calling for it's supporters in the house to vote against their own amendment.....
You really can't make this sort of shit up.
"The House of Commons was a Benny Hill chase on acid, running through a Salvador Dali painting in a spaceship on its way to infinity". - Tom Peck, The independent
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
More hilarity from the House of Commons today..... The Second Referendum MPs put an amendment down hoping to win a vote on a "people's vote" - due to be voted on at about 1700.
Having realised they will lose the vote, the "People's Vote" campaign are now calling for it's supporters in the house to vote against their own amendment.....
You really can't make this sort of shit up.
"The House of Commons was a Benny Hill chase on acid, running through a Salvador Dali painting in a spaceship on its way to infinity". - Tom Peck, The independent
Not quite right. The push for the second referendum bill is not from the the Peoples Vote brigade. They never wanted a vote on it today. They are simply saying that now isn't the time.
The comedy for me, which pushes me to utter despair, is that May wants a third vote on her deal. Which means that many of her critics were absolutely right. She's just been delaying and delaying it so that it's the only realistic option. She's changed fuck all, explored fuck all other options and just keeps re-iterating the same bloody thing.
I'm getting angry now.
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@MajorRage But is it just her? Perhap the EU are s ticking it to us and saying it's this or nothing and she knows that? They know we're in a position of weakness - due to our incompetent handling from the word go and it's not as if we've been playing our cards close to our chest is it?
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Amendment was sponsored by Vince Cable, Jo Swinson & other luminaries of the People Vote campaign. Obviously they didn't bother checking with the folks back at the ranch...
Yep. May's plan has been clear all along and she might well get it thru next week if reports of the DUP coming on board are true. She might win by continuously losing - which speaks more about her opponents than it does about her.
Bloody mess has to end.
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Good points and it's interesting that the EU's Tusk is pointing to a 2 year or 4 year extension which might concentrate the Brexit head-bangers minds
But I don't think it's to do with weakness - it's more about maintaining an orderly exit and allowing the EU to move onto more pressing matters If there's EU parliament elections in the UK in May, it's likely the rump of UKIP or Farage's new party will do well and swell the ranks of the expected anti-EU parties in Stasbourg.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
Good points and it's interesting that the EU's Tusk is pointing to a 2 year or 4 year extension which might concentrate the Brexit head-bangers minds
But I don't think it's to do with weakness - it's more about maintaining an orderly exit and allowing the EU to move onto more pressing matters If there's EU parliament elections in the UK in May, it's likely the rump of UKIP or Farage's new party will do well and swell the ranks of the expected anti-EU parties in Stasbourg.
For sure they'd have their own issues which would dictate to a great degree their stance on Brexit, but if we (May) were perceived to in a stronger position perhaps there would be a little more wiggle room provided by the EU. It's a supposition, but one I think that is quite feasible.
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Absolutely. But May's cack-handedness and Remainer MP's trying to undermine any deal can't be undone. I think the EU is simply playing what is in front of it
Very, very few MPs will come out of this with any credit. If we have an extension and continue this shit the anger will just grow and grow.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
Absolutely. But May's cack-handedness and Remainer MP's trying to undermine any deal can't be undone. I think the EU is simply playing what is in front of it
Very, very few MPs will come out of this with any credit. If we have an extension and continue this shit the anger will just grow and grow.
Very few will come out of this with any credit but I'm sure that with retrospect many will claim some false kudos.
But you're right, it's a shitshow.
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@Paekakboyz said in Brexit:
@dogmeat how soon are the EU team likely to respond to that? does it go to a vote or will they already have a couple of potential responses in the can and ready to go?
With the EU I’d guess contingency plan in place. Of course if it were our lot they wouldn’t have thought that far ahead and would need four debates and three votes.
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@Catogrande and then delay it for good measure!!
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Lots of rumours tonight that the Tory rebels will back May's deal if she resigns
Brexit