Should the Crusaders change their name?
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@Stargazer not really...its about what the Crusades represent isnt it?
Similarly what Christchurch's name represents...I know plenty of tongue in cheek comments above, but where do you draw the line?
Plenty of things throughout history that have caused harm to people, cultures, countries etc.
Gengys might think about changing thier name, I mean Genghis killed a whole heap of Chinese
It is walking a fine line...as many are saying, they wont rush the decision as now is not the time...maybe the Crusdaers will need a Referendum...
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The Thorn(e)s.
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@Stargazer said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@Kirwan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
Why stop at the rugby team. If we are changing the cross imagery as well, perhaps we should rename Christchurch itself!
Way too Christian! Might be offensive!
That's the most stupid argument I've seen on social media. None of the objections have to do with Christianity itself.
Most people would object if a sports team called itself "Jihad" or "Mujahideen".
No sensible person would ask for a name change of the city of Islamabad.
The whole thing is stupid, and my joke was in response to this part of your comment;
"Who knows, maybe it's only the imagery of the crosses and swords they'd like to change"
There is nothing offensive about crosses and swords.
In short, where to you draw the line in terms of somebody's offence restricting what other people can do?
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@Kirwan In short, where to you draw the line in terms of somebody's offence restricting what other people can do?
That's it in a nutshell.
In the old days, it was remarkably simple, sticks and stones etc. All this offense is a variation on this. Better to arm individuals with the tools that identify nonsense talk, rather than crying to authorities
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This post is deleted!
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@Kirwan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@Stargazer said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@Kirwan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
Why stop at the rugby team. If we are changing the cross imagery as well, perhaps we should rename Christchurch itself!
Way too Christian! Might be offensive!
That's the most stupid argument I've seen on social media. None of the objections have to do with Christianity itself.
Most people would object if a sports team called itself "Jihad" or "Mujahideen".
No sensible person would ask for a name change of the city of Islamabad.
The whole thing is stupid, and my joke was in response to this part of your comment;
"Who knows, maybe it's only the imagery of the crosses and swords they'd like to change"
There is nothing offensive about crosses and swords.
In short, where to you draw the line in terms of somebody's offence restricting what other people can do?
In itself there's nothing offensive about crosses and swords (unless you're a pacifist); the combination of the name Crusaders and 'crosses and swords' may make it offensive to some.
Crusaders can be crusaders for peace; that connection is, however, unlikely if your imagery contains swords (connecting them to violence) and crosses (connecting them - and the violence - to Christianity, in which name the ancient Crusaders went to war). Remove the crosses and swords, and you end that connection. Not sure an olive branch on their logo would work though haha.
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@Stargazer said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@Kirwan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@Stargazer said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@Kirwan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
Why stop at the rugby team. If we are changing the cross imagery as well, perhaps we should rename Christchurch itself!
Way too Christian! Might be offensive!
That's the most stupid argument I've seen on social media. None of the objections have to do with Christianity itself.
Most people would object if a sports team called itself "Jihad" or "Mujahideen".
No sensible person would ask for a name change of the city of Islamabad.
The whole thing is stupid, and my joke was in response to this part of your comment;
"Who knows, maybe it's only the imagery of the crosses and swords they'd like to change"
There is nothing offensive about crosses and swords.
In short, where to you draw the line in terms of somebody's offence restricting what other people can do?
In itself there's nothing offensive about crosses and swords (unless you're a pacifist); the combination of the name Crusaders and 'crosses and swords' may make it offensive to some.
Crusaders can be crusaders for peace; that connection is, however, unlikely if your imagery contains swords (connecting them to violence) and crosses (connecting them - and the violence - to Christianity, in which name the ancient Crusaders went to war). Remove the crosses and swords, and you end that connection. Not sure an olive branch on their logo would work though haha.
If they decide to do something, logo change would certainly be much easier than all out change. The Cleveland Indians got rid of their red Indian chief logo recently and replaced it with another logo
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The Pirates!! as a not so subtle reference to the strong interest on what boat your family arrived on.
I'm hoping they let things settle a bit and don't rush to a decision, even in spite of the recent commentary including players etc. @canefan I like that idea of maybe just a logo change - become caped crusaders instead of the other flavour.
Is it bad I just made the connection between depression, JK and the Blues?
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@Paekakboyz have seen the JK/Blues reference on social media plenty on this topic.
Everyone is saying they are happy to have the discussion, but right now, is not the time...any change would likely have to wait until at the very earliest, post 2019?
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@taniwharugby said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@Paekakboyz have seen the JK/Blues reference on social media plenty on this topic.
Everyone is saying they are happy to have the discussion, but right now, is not the time...any change would likely have to wait until at the very earliest, post 2019?
I don't know what the muslim community is like in Chch, but the ones I come to meet up here are happy to keep to themselves pretty much, they aren't the most boisterous of people to outsiders. I would not expect them to assume any sort of prominent role in changing anything about the Crusaders rugby franchise. I am sure they would just rather live in peace and quiet outside the limelight
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@Paekakboyz said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
Is it bad I just made the connection between depression, JK and the Blues?
I never ever thought of that!! Just never really came to mind. I never really liked the name anyway. Of all the things to call the team, with a rich maritime and volcanic history to draw on among others, I thought it was pretty uninspired really
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@canefan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@Paekakboyz said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
Is it bad I just made the connection between depression, JK and the Blues?
I never ever thought of that!! Just never really came to mind. I never really liked the name anyway. Of all the things to call the team, with a rich maritime and volcanic history to draw on among others, I thought it was pretty uninspired really
Vol-Kaino's has a certain ring to it
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@Paekakboyz said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
The Pirates!!
The Blues mascot was a pirate for many years, and they have a volcanic island as part of their logo FFS.
The Schooners
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This is an interesting debate in regards to what is and isn't offensive. I think we also need to look at the word 'insensitive' as this I believe will likely be a big factor in any potential name change.
Whilst many people including Muslims will say they are not offended by the name Crusaders, the question will be is naming a sports side after a war in which an ethnic group was targeted and killed maybe seen as insensitive in 2019.
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@chimoaus said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
This is an interesting debate in regards to what is and isn't offensive. I think we also need to look at the word 'insensitive' as this I believe will likely be a big factor in any potential name change.
Whilst many people including Muslims will say they are not offended by the name Crusaders, the question will be is naming a sports side after a war in which an ethnic group was targeted and killed maybe seen as insensitive in 2019.
The interview with the first CEO(?) of the Saders, where he said he had misgivings about the name right from the start was interesting. Perhaps they could have chosen another name right from the start?
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@taniwharugby said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@canefan think Plainsmen was the other option I heard on the radio on Monday...sounds more like a gang!
Not very exciting.....
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@taniwharugby said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@canefan think Plainsmen was the other option I heard on the radio on Monday...sounds more like a gang!
Clansmen?
... no?
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@Stargazer said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
@Damo said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:
I think they should change the name. The crusades were a ghastly period in European/middle East history. The term is offensive and should not be glorified by using it in a team.
I have thought that for a while, but given what happened I am now convinced the name should go. Am I really the only one here who thinks this?
People who think that the word or name crusaders only relate to past events from 800 years ago, fail to see the link with what's been happening in the Middle East in the last few decades (probably longer). For many muslims, the words crusade and crusaders have a similar meaning to jihad and jihadist today. Western military interventions in the Middle East have caused a lot of misery & fear, even if they were started to fight dictators, Taliban or ISIS, and are often seen/portrayed as modern crusades, esp if there are civilian casualties. Whether local muslim groups in Chch see it that way, I don't know, but that's why it's good that the Crusaders talk to them about it. Who knows, maybe it's only the imagery of the crosses and swords they'd like to change. Wait and see.
This.
I won't say I am an expert, but there is a perception amongst many Muslim people (rightly or wrongly) that recent Western adventures and misadventures in the Middle East are a continuation of Crusade.
I think the name is inappropriate and should change.