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@taniwharugby said in NZ Politics:
@Rembrandt think the point is, many of them have lived in Aus since the were toddlers (plus the issues with even getting citizenship) so it has been the Aussie system that has lead them to be where they are, but are turfed to NZ with no family or connections, so end up in gangs or prison...that said, I suspect a few of them would likely have followed the same path in NZ too.
It's not been the Aussie system, it's been their upbringing and their own choices. They don't have a right to stay here - they're guests and if they're shitbags they've outstayed their welcome.
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@antipodean said in NZ Politics:
@jegga said in NZ Politics:
She also extended it into a whine about how kiwis who are non citizens can't join the defence force or get access to all the benefits citizens can. If you want to live there and get access to all those things shouldn't you become a citizen?
It's astonishing logic.
Individual: I want to become a member of the Australian Defence Force.
Government: Ok, first step is to become an Australian.
Individual: Don't want to.
Government: ...Also not being a feral would mean you wouldn't get deported, its not rocket science.
Precisely.
The fact that some people think she actually achieved something with her speech shouldn't surprise me but it does. The Australians will continue to dump trash here and ignore her.
I see Oscar Keightley was all onboard with the "don't bother to become a citizen but expect to be treated like one" train , he's a handy barometer of current affairs stupidity. If you agree with his take on anything in the news you need to back up and reassess what your opinion. His is pretty much always the wrong take , worse than the Spinoff wrong on most occasions.
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it's been their upbringing and their own choices
Bit of a stretch, implying they all had a shit upbringing?
You can make poor choices regardless of upbringing
I did say some would likely have gone down same path in NZ or where ever, but can't tar all
Moot point anyway, Aus not doing anything illegal.
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@taniwharugby said in NZ Politics:
Bit of a stretch, implying they all had a shit upbringing?
That's not implied. Hence the conjunction and.
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@antipodean So then it is fair to say the environment has helped shape some of them to the point of where they are currently (awaiting deportation)
Similarly you get some that leave NZ because they see themselves going down the wrong path, and up on the right one elsewhere.
Look I don't really give a shit either way (sure less crims in NZ the better) but given Aus are within thier rights to do what they are doing, St. Cindy is fighting a losing battle when there is plenty more on our shores she should be more focussed on.
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@antipodean said in NZ Politics:
@taniwharugby said in NZ Politics:
@Rembrandt think the point is, many of them have lived in Aus since the were toddlers (plus the issues with even getting citizenship) so it has been the Aussie system that has lead them to be where they are, but are turfed to NZ with no family or connections, so end up in gangs or prison...that said, I suspect a few of them would likely have followed the same path in NZ too.
It's not been the Aussie system, it's been their upbringing and their own choices. They don't have a right to stay here - they're guests and if they're shitbags they've outstayed their welcome.
If you buy a cute puppy then spend a decade turning it into a sheep-worrying, slavering ball of mean, when the ranger eventually catches it they don’t get to return it to the pet shop.
I don’t give a goddamn for these ferals’ rights. But if we’re talking culpability even if your systems are only 10% responsible for someone becoming a fluffybunny that’s still 9% more than my systems’ fault. So keep your shit in your own cesspit.
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Ardern has managed to give the impression that most of these people were toddlers when they went there , I doubt that very much .
Since we are on the subject of her pointless virtue signalling the Muslim community don’t want a memorial for March 15 . But Ardern is dying for another opportunity to put on a hijab and dish out hugs in front of a camera so they are getting a memorial service they don’t want .
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12312378
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@taniwharugby said in NZ Politics:
@antipodean So then it is fair to say the environment has helped shape some of them to the point of where they are currently (awaiting deportation)
No, it's not. The vast majority of people aren't failed by the system, so I don't accept it as a prima facie excuse for their behaviour.
@JC said in NZ Politics:
@antipodean said in NZ Politics:
@taniwharugby said in NZ Politics:
@Rembrandt think the point is, many of them have lived in Aus since the were toddlers (plus the issues with even getting citizenship) so it has been the Aussie system that has lead them to be where they are, but are turfed to NZ with no family or connections, so end up in gangs or prison...that said, I suspect a few of them would likely have followed the same path in NZ too.
It's not been the Aussie system, it's been their upbringing and their own choices. They don't have a right to stay here - they're guests and if they're shitbags they've outstayed their welcome.
If you buy a cute puppy then spend a decade turning it into a sheep-worrying, slavering ball of mean, when the ranger eventually catches it they don’t get to return it to the pet shop.
I don’t give a goddamn for these ferals’ rights. But if we’re talking culpability even if your systems are only 10% responsible for someone becoming a fluffybunny that’s still 9% more than my systems’ fault. So keep your shit in your own cesspit.
Classic begging the question fallacy. It's also a red herring. These people have no legal right to remain in the country. I don't give a fuck if they've been here for 80 years.
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@jegga said in NZ Politics:
Ardern has managed to give the impression that most of these people were toddlers when they went there , I doubt that very much .
Since we are on the subject of her pointless virtue signalling the Muslim community don’t want a memorial for March 15 . But Ardern is dying for another opportunity to put on a hijab and dish out hugs in front of a camera so they are getting a memorial service they don’t want .
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12312378
.. Hard not be be cynical about that. Surely they'd respect the wishes of the Muslim community and let them remember in their own way while getting on with their lives.
Smacks of Pike River Mine type politics. Exploit the families for political gain.
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@antipodean said in NZ Politics:
@taniwharugby said in NZ Politics:
@antipodean So then it is fair to say the environment has helped shape some of them to the point of where they are currently (awaiting deportation)
No, it's not. The vast majority of people aren't failed by the system, so I don't accept it as a prima facie excuse for their behaviour.
@JC said in NZ Politics:
@antipodean said in NZ Politics:
@taniwharugby said in NZ Politics:
@Rembrandt think the point is, many of them have lived in Aus since the were toddlers (plus the issues with even getting citizenship) so it has been the Aussie system that has lead them to be where they are, but are turfed to NZ with no family or connections, so end up in gangs or prison...that said, I suspect a few of them would likely have followed the same path in NZ too.
It's not been the Aussie system, it's been their upbringing and their own choices. They don't have a right to stay here - they're guests and if they're shitbags they've outstayed their welcome.
If you buy a cute puppy then spend a decade turning it into a sheep-worrying, slavering ball of mean, when the ranger eventually catches it they don’t get to return it to the pet shop.
I don’t give a goddamn for these ferals’ rights. But if we’re talking culpability even if your systems are only 10% responsible for someone becoming a fluffybunny that’s still 9% more than my systems’ fault. So keep your shit in your own cesspit.
Classic begging the question fallacy. It's also a red herring. These people have no legal right to remain in the country. I don't give a fuck if they've been here for 80 years.
Sorry, I just looked at what I typed and can't see a circular argument anywhere. Just a common-or-garden analogy. But while we are busy having teaching moments, I pretty clearly said I don't give a goddamn about these people and their rights, which makes your point that they have no legal right to remain superfluous. I just don't want them here. Drown them, put them on Christmas Island, who gives a shit. But they don't belong here.
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@JC said in NZ Politics:
@antipodean said in NZ Politics:
@taniwharugby said in NZ Politics:
@antipodean So then it is fair to say the environment has helped shape some of them to the point of where they are currently (awaiting deportation)
No, it's not. The vast majority of people aren't failed by the system, so I don't accept it as a prima facie excuse for their behaviour.
@JC said in NZ Politics:
@antipodean said in NZ Politics:
@taniwharugby said in NZ Politics:
@Rembrandt think the point is, many of them have lived in Aus since the were toddlers (plus the issues with even getting citizenship) so it has been the Aussie system that has lead them to be where they are, but are turfed to NZ with no family or connections, so end up in gangs or prison...that said, I suspect a few of them would likely have followed the same path in NZ too.
It's not been the Aussie system, it's been their upbringing and their own choices. They don't have a right to stay here - they're guests and if they're shitbags they've outstayed their welcome.
If you buy a cute puppy then spend a decade turning it into a sheep-worrying, slavering ball of mean, when the ranger eventually catches it they don’t get to return it to the pet shop.
I don’t give a goddamn for these ferals’ rights. But if we’re talking culpability even if your systems are only 10% responsible for someone becoming a fluffybunny that’s still 9% more than my systems’ fault. So keep your shit in your own cesspit.
Classic begging the question fallacy. It's also a red herring. These people have no legal right to remain in the country. I don't give a fuck if they've been here for 80 years.
Sorry, I just looked at what I typed and can't see a circular argument anywhere. Just a common-or-garden analogy. But while we are busy having teaching moments, I pretty clearly said I don't give a goddamn about these people and their rights, which makes your point that they have no legal right to remain superfluous. I just don't want them here. Drown them, put them on Christmas Island, who gives a shit. But they don't belong here.
I'll happily accept they don't belong in New Zealand, but they belong in Australia even less. For much the same reason I was so critical of Australia's attempt to make stateless citizens who went off to fight wars the government didn't approve of.
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@antipodean said in NZ Politics:
@JC said in NZ Politics:
@antipodean said in NZ Politics:
@taniwharugby said in NZ Politics:
@antipodean So then it is fair to say the environment has helped shape some of them to the point of where they are currently (awaiting deportation)
No, it's not. The vast majority of people aren't failed by the system, so I don't accept it as a prima facie excuse for their behaviour.
@JC said in NZ Politics:
@antipodean said in NZ Politics:
@taniwharugby said in NZ Politics:
@Rembrandt think the point is, many of them have lived in Aus since the were toddlers (plus the issues with even getting citizenship) so it has been the Aussie system that has lead them to be where they are, but are turfed to NZ with no family or connections, so end up in gangs or prison...that said, I suspect a few of them would likely have followed the same path in NZ too.
It's not been the Aussie system, it's been their upbringing and their own choices. They don't have a right to stay here - they're guests and if they're shitbags they've outstayed their welcome.
If you buy a cute puppy then spend a decade turning it into a sheep-worrying, slavering ball of mean, when the ranger eventually catches it they don’t get to return it to the pet shop.
I don’t give a goddamn for these ferals’ rights. But if we’re talking culpability even if your systems are only 10% responsible for someone becoming a fluffybunny that’s still 9% more than my systems’ fault. So keep your shit in your own cesspit.
Classic begging the question fallacy. It's also a red herring. These people have no legal right to remain in the country. I don't give a fuck if they've been here for 80 years.
Sorry, I just looked at what I typed and can't see a circular argument anywhere. Just a common-or-garden analogy. But while we are busy having teaching moments, I pretty clearly said I don't give a goddamn about these people and their rights, which makes your point that they have no legal right to remain superfluous. I just don't want them here. Drown them, put them on Christmas Island, who gives a shit. But they don't belong here.
I'll happily accept they don't belong in New Zealand, but they belong in Australia even less. For much the same reason I was so critical of Australia's attempt to make stateless citizens who went off to fight wars the government didn't approve of.
OK, so we seem to be spiralling towards the drowning option. You guys should take the lead there because you’ve got sharks that can clean up the detritus.
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I'll just put this here....
https://stuff.co.nz/national/politics/119832405/fishing-influence-trawls-deep-into-nz-firsts-past
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@canefan said in NZ Politics:
I'll just put this here....
https://stuff.co.nz/national/politics/119832405/fishing-influence-trawls-deep-into-nz-firsts-past
I am shocked . Shocked I say .
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A story that might have been even bigger news at another time:
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Samoan chief guilty of all but one human-trafficking charge
"A man accused of human trafficking and slavery charges has been found guilty of all but one charge. Joseph Matamata, 65, was on trial before a jury in the High Court at Napier, facing 11 charges of trafficking people and 13 charges of dealing in slaves."
The man I most admire in rugby is Michael Jones - as the best I have seen on the field, as a serious, valuable and energetic leader and as a committed Christian. I regard Keven Mealamu highly for similar reasons.
Then you discover this honorable grub of a tribal chief, trading in people just as his counterparts in Africa had done for centuries, sitting haughtily in the big hut and selling the lower castes for profit. The morbidly obese little short asks beat and tortured his victims to boot. His defence counsel said the trial was about "an extended Samoan family and their relationships. I'll ask you to consider how the dynamics and family relationship applies". Yeah, hide behind "culture" - that'll probably work.
I had a brief education on Samoan public life during the Sevens here a decade ago. A Samoan team official turned out to be the minister of sport and the minister of jaunts to expensive places elsewhere in the world. His wife happened to be secretary of the tourist board. He didn't do much more than enjoy a grand breakfast at the Crowne Plaza and ride the team bus to the ground each day. His team official role was limited to appearing regal and to receiving visitors with gestures reminding them of his importance.
There was none of the gentle, lazy happiness and affection that I was accustomed to in our club rugby.
I remember having at look at his profile and discovering Samoa has 15 ministers, and 15 of them in the cabinet!! (additional salary I assume), and 15 departments and 15 corporations - administering Ports and Airports and such. Apia harbour must have a throughput approaching Rotterdam's and their airport has got to be up there with Dallas-Fort Worth. The pointless, self important posturing of these fat bar-stewards is underwritten by less than two hundred thousand Samoans and by charity from mugs in other countries.
Presumably the Samoan tribal mafia numbered 15 families and all of them were due an official territory.
I concluded Samoa might succeed in something but for the Samoans.
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@Snowy said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@MajorRage said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
That's also democracy though. If racing is your life and you know Winston will do his best for the racing industry, you vote for Winston.
Yes, if that is your bag, you do, but no it's not democracy , which is supposed to be the will of the majority. Not many voted for Winston. They government was constructed by him and Labour, not the general will of the people.
That's an MMP democracy. Which I believe was voted in, by a democratic vote.
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@MajorRage said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
That's an MMP democracy. Which I believe was voted in, by a democratic vote.
Yes, but was it the will of the people to have Winston there? Is the ideology of democracy being upheld?
NZ Politics