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@paekakboyz masochism 101
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@paekakboyz said in NZ Politics:
@mokey so what you're saying is they are doing it on purpose
The classic NZ planning approach to transport (and some other things), do such a half pie job of something so that it "proves" that it was the idea itself that was bad.
Sometimes it feels like 'do anything to avoid doing something well'...
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@donsteppa said in NZ Politics:
@paekakboyz said in NZ Politics:
@mokey so what you're saying is they are doing it on purpose
The classic NZ planning approach to transport (and some other things), do such a half pie job of something so that it "proves" that it was the idea itself that was bad.
Sometimes it feels like 'do anything to avoid doing something well'...
there's the other approach, which is if uptake isn't what was expected, it's because we didn't do enough, or spend enough. Ideology trumps pragmatism and real world testing of ideas.
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@donsteppa said in NZ Politics:
@paekakboyz said in NZ Politics:
@mokey so what you're saying is they are doing it on purpose
The classic NZ planning approach to transport (and some other things), do such a half pie job of something so that it "proves" that it was the idea itself that was bad.
Sometimes it feels like 'do anything to avoid doing something well'...
I'm reminded of a saying of an old colleague of mine: it's not an Engineering problem, it's a money problem. You can fix any problem by throwing enough money at it
We don't want to spend the money to do it properly, so end up wasting what we do spend by not doing it properly.
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@booboo said in NZ Politics:
@donsteppa said in NZ Politics:
@paekakboyz said in NZ Politics:
@mokey so what you're saying is they are doing it on purpose
The classic NZ planning approach to transport (and some other things), do such a half pie job of something so that it "proves" that it was the idea itself that was bad.
Sometimes it feels like 'do anything to avoid doing something well'...
I'm reminded of a saying of an old colleague of mine: it's not an Engineering problem, it's a money problem. You can fix any problem by throwing enough money at it
We don't want to spend the money to do it properly, so end up wasting what we do spend by not doing it properly.
We should be pound wise. But we are penny foolish. For a country renowned for innovations we just fail to see the big picture on major infrastructure more often than not
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@mokey said in NZ Politics:
@canefan yep. We are the country who goes ooooh, can't spend 200 million, that sounds like too much. So we end up budgeting 50 million, get a turkey, then spend 500 million fixing various turkey issues for the next 20 years.
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@canefan said in NZ Politics:
we just fail to see the big picture on major infrastructure more often than not
A throw back to "think big" or "sink big" depending on your politics maybe, and the subsequent wage freezes and anti inflationary measures. I was too young at the time to fully see what was going on but I remember carless days and all the talk from the adults and have read about it all since.
Sir Dove-Meyer Robinson had plans for a proper AKL rail system as well. 40 years ago (that they are now doing). Couldn't get the funding then, but it probably would have saved billions in terms of time, traffic, roading, etc. for the whole region over the last 4 decades.
Looking back at the list of the Muldoon projects it was quite successful (in terms of infrastructure) and we are still getting the benefits, but the debt was horrendous and was a massive overspend that took years to get over economically. Had the energy crisis of the 70's continued, as was expected, it probably would have been more accepted at the time. Climate change wasn't an issue and it was economics that held the floor, but having green energy and not being dependent on imported fossil fuels was another win even now.
One of the projects was electrification of railways and and power to supply them (along with the rest of the country).
Then we run a train from AKL to Hamilton using diesel 40 years later. Sigh.
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@snowy said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
we just fail to see the big picture on major infrastructure more often than not
A throw back to "think big" or "sink big" depending on your politics maybe, and the subsequent wage freezes and anti inflationary measures. I was too young at the time to fully see what was going on but I remember carless days and all the talk from the adults and have read about it all since.
Sir Dove-Meyer Robinson had plans for a proper AKL rail system as well. 40 years ago (that they are now doing). Couldn't get the funding then, but it probably would have saved billions in terms of time, traffic, roading, etc. for the whole region over the last 4 decades.
Looking back at the list of the Muldoon projects it was quite successful (in terms of infrastructure) and we are still getting the benefits, but the debt was horrendous and was a massive overspend that took years to get over economically. Had the energy crisis of the 70's continued, as was expected, it probably would have been more accepted at the time. Climate change wasn't an issue and it was economics that held the floor, but having green energy and not being dependent on imported fossil fuels was another win even now.
One of the projects was electrification of railways and and power to supply them (along with the rest of the country).
Then we run a train from AKL to Hamilton using diesel 40 years later. Sigh.
Be thankful it's not steam
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@snowy said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
Sir Dove-Meyer Robinson had plans for a proper AKL rail system as well. 40 years ago (that they are now doing). Couldn't get the funding then, but it probably would have saved billions in terms of time, traffic, roading, etc. for the whole region over the last 4 decades.
There are a handful of buildings in central Auckland that were constructed at the time with the ability to have a rail platform underneath them I believe.
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@mokey said in NZ Politics:
@canefan yep. We are the country who goes ooooh, can't spend 200 million, that sounds like too much. So we end up budgeting 50 million, get a turkey, then spend 500 million fixing various turkey issues for the next 20 years.
We could be like London where an intial GBP15B project (Crossrail) had all the money it needed but still blew out by another 4 billion and will be 4 years late.
We aren't the only screwups.
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@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@snowy said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
Sir Dove-Meyer Robinson had plans for a proper AKL rail system as well. 40 years ago (that they are now doing). Couldn't get the funding then, but it probably would have saved billions in terms of time, traffic, roading, etc. for the whole region over the last 4 decades.
There are a handful of buildings in central Auckland that were constructed at the time with the ability to have a rail platform underneath them I believe.
From what I can recall being told, DMR wanted to build an integrated rail network with underground as well. They thought he was mad. If they had done it Auckland's population would probably much more by now
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@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@mokey said in NZ Politics:
@canefan yep. We are the country who goes ooooh, can't spend 200 million, that sounds like too much. So we end up budgeting 50 million, get a turkey, then spend 500 million fixing various turkey issues for the next 20 years.
We could be like London where an intial GBP15B project (Crossrail) had all the money it needed but still blew out by another 4 billion and will be 4 years late.
We aren't the only screwups.
Infrastructure just isn't sexy enough for most western countries
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@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@mokey said in NZ Politics:
@canefan yep. We are the country who goes ooooh, can't spend 200 million, that sounds like too much. So we end up budgeting 50 million, get a turkey, then spend 500 million fixing various turkey issues for the next 20 years.
We could be like London where an intial GBP15B project (Crossrail) had all the money it needed but still blew out by another 4 billion and will be 4 years late.
We aren't the only screwups.
Infrastructure just isn't sexy enough for most western countries
It is if you are Australian and build a ship.
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@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@mokey said in NZ Politics:
@canefan yep. We are the country who goes ooooh, can't spend 200 million, that sounds like too much. So we end up budgeting 50 million, get a turkey, then spend 500 million fixing various turkey issues for the next 20 years.
We could be like London where an intial GBP15B project (Crossrail) had all the money it needed but still blew out by another 4 billion and will be 4 years late.
We aren't the only screwups.
Infrastructure just isn't sexy enough for most western countries
It is if you are Australian and build a ship.
The Aussies are quite good. I remember when they built the orbital road in Sydney. Didn't seem to take them that long. Melbourne has a great public transport system. Doesn't stop them from having traffic jams though
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@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@mokey said in NZ Politics:
@canefan yep. We are the country who goes ooooh, can't spend 200 million, that sounds like too much. So we end up budgeting 50 million, get a turkey, then spend 500 million fixing various turkey issues for the next 20 years.
We could be like London where an intial GBP15B project (Crossrail) had all the money it needed but still blew out by another 4 billion and will be 4 years late.
We aren't the only screwups.
Infrastructure just isn't sexy enough for most western countries
It is if you are Australian and build a ship.
The Aussies are quite good. I remember when they built the orbital road in Sydney. Didn't seem to take them that long. Melbourne has a great public transport system. Doesn't stop them from having traffic jams though
https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/4554/australian-class?_=1618434668928
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@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@mokey said in NZ Politics:
@canefan yep. We are the country who goes ooooh, can't spend 200 million, that sounds like too much. So we end up budgeting 50 million, get a turkey, then spend 500 million fixing various turkey issues for the next 20 years.
We could be like London where an intial GBP15B project (Crossrail) had all the money it needed but still blew out by another 4 billion and will be 4 years late.
We aren't the only screwups.
Infrastructure just isn't sexy enough for most western countries
It is if you are Australian and build a ship.
The Aussies are quite good. I remember when they built the orbital road in Sydney. Didn't seem to take them that long. Melbourne has a great public transport system. Doesn't stop them from having traffic jams though
doesn't take that long? the widening of a stretch of road no more than a couple of hundred metres can take more than a year. And that's from diggers in the ground, not planning.
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@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@mokey said in NZ Politics:
@canefan yep. We are the country who goes ooooh, can't spend 200 million, that sounds like too much. So we end up budgeting 50 million, get a turkey, then spend 500 million fixing various turkey issues for the next 20 years.
We could be like London where an intial GBP15B project (Crossrail) had all the money it needed but still blew out by another 4 billion and will be 4 years late.
We aren't the only screwups.
Infrastructure just isn't sexy enough for most western countries
It is if you are Australian and build a ship.
Laughed.
"Sexy" - well they tried. Unco and embarrassing they had sorted. -
@mariner4life said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@mokey said in NZ Politics:
@canefan yep. We are the country who goes ooooh, can't spend 200 million, that sounds like too much. So we end up budgeting 50 million, get a turkey, then spend 500 million fixing various turkey issues for the next 20 years.
We could be like London where an intial GBP15B project (Crossrail) had all the money it needed but still blew out by another 4 billion and will be 4 years late.
We aren't the only screwups.
Infrastructure just isn't sexy enough for most western countries
It is if you are Australian and build a ship.
The Aussies are quite good. I remember when they built the orbital road in Sydney. Didn't seem to take them that long. Melbourne has a great public transport system. Doesn't stop them from having traffic jams though
doesn't take that long? the widening of a stretch of road no more than a couple of hundred metres can take more than a year. And that's from diggers in the ground, not planning.
I guess we all have the same problem
NZ Politics