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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="571994" data-time="1460546113">
<div>
<p>To illustrate the loudest noise point again, such is the noise that the anti-Islam brigade on here make, a casual viewer of this forum would think this was the main belief around here, but really it just gets so tiresome that posters with different views just can't be fucked most of the time - this is about the 3rd iteration of this same thread in about the same amount of months and it's the first time I can really be bothered to contribute anything substantial. TBH I find some of the reactionary stuff on here to be comical. Hell, even Enoch Powell would crack up at some of the end of civilisation comments on this thread. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I know we have discussed this type of topic before but I really enjoy the debate. I enjoyed your (and Siam's) posts because you both brought a different view to the argument, and I would hope people aren't being put off adding their thoughts and ideas to the debate. I don't think anyone gets "shouted down" but if you put an idea forward, it is going to be analysed and broken down so you do need to be prepared to either defend it or concede.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>:)</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="572128" data-time="1460596764">
<div>
<p>Re: multiculturalism. Problems will always arise because you are taking two different groups of people with different beliefs and asking them to find a middle ground. There will be conflict while that middle ground is found. Some cultures will mix better then others. When you mix Islam into Western culture, the beliefs are so different that a middle ground simply cannot be found, and the conflict escalates as we are seeing in Europe.</p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Yes, that was kind of my original point about multiculturalism creating more issues than solutions.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>FWIW, I love it. I love the fact the colleagues in my office are Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Australian, American and British. I really enjoy chatting with them about their homelands, their beliefs, looking at what they wear, their political views, everything. I love walking down the street and choosing from the 50+ types of cuisine I could eat. Korean roll today, hamburger tomorrow, sushi the next day, curry on friday etc - it's an amazing way to live.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But what happens when Joe Bob is in NZ trying to watch the rugby and suddenly the TV in the pub (serving Asahi) is turned over to watch Kitchee vs tokyo at football, due to the crowd being predominantly Asia. Is Joe Bob happy? What about when somebody drives like they do in their home land - cutting in etc. Is he happy then? What about when his kid who is top 20%, doesn't have the work ethic of the other cultures, so doesn't make the top stream classes, how about now? When he's at the supermarket buying his groceries and suddenly realises he's the only white fella around and the only person speaking english? Is Joe stilll happy? And what about Joe's Dad whose lived in a small town his entire life, paid his taxes, and now wants the quiet life of golf, the odd punt at the TAB and a few beers at the local club with his mates. But suddenly the golf club more expensive as it's owned by wealthy immigrants, the TAB is no longer a social place to hang out as it's filled with immigrants and his local club - well all his mates are now just whinging as their businesses are stuffed by cheaper labour costs etc etc.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The thing is, for my situations, it's all nice to haves which make my happy. But if I lost them, well, meh, whatever. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>But the negatives - well to these people, they are far larger negatives than my positives. Oh and Joes Dad? He's real. He's my Uncle.</p> -
<p>A part of me thinks "So What?!?" I mean over tens of thousands of years the landscap of humans has changed and I expect it to keep doing so. I think that hoping it's not going to change (or trying to prevent it) is more damaging to the mind that the actual effect of it happeneing.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If it happens suddenly then I would exp[ect that I may feel different but if it just slowly evolves, like it is in NZ currently, I don't mind</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="572139" data-time="1460599245">
<div>
<p>A part of me thinks "So What?!?" I mean over tens of thousands of years the landscap of humans has changed and I expect it to keep doing so. I think that hoping it's not going to change (or trying to prevent it) is more damaging to the mind that the actual effect of it happeneing.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If it happens suddenly then I would exp[ect that I may feel different but if it just slowly evolves, like it is in NZ currently, I don't mind</p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Are you saying it does not matter if change is good or evil? Because change happens?</p>
<p>That appears to be what you are saying. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="572139" data-time="1460599245">
<div>
<p>A part of me thinks "So What?!?" I mean over tens of thousands of years the landscap of humans has changed and I expect it to keep doing so. I think that hoping it's not going to change (or trying to prevent it) is more damaging to the mind that the actual effect of it happeneing.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If it happens suddenly then I would exp[ect that I may feel different but if it just slowly evolves, like it is in NZ currently, I don't mind</p>
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<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Asia NZ does some interesting research each year: <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.asianz.org.nz/bulletin/perceptions-asia-2015-survey'>http://www.asianz.org.nz/bulletin/perceptions-asia-2015-survey</a></p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
<p> </p>
<p>Nearly two-thirds (63 percent) of people who answered the survey, <em>New Zealanders’ Perceptions of Asia and Asian Peoples 2015</em>, said they knew little or nothing about Asia. This was despite the fact the vast majority of people (82 percent) felt it was important for New Zealand to develop economic and cultural ties with the region, and despite Asia being seen as the second most important region to New Zealand (behind Australia).</p>
<p>Yet, at a personal level, the survey also shows New Zealanders feel increasingly connected to Asian people. In 2015, about half (51 percent) of people reported having at least a fair amount to do with Asian peoples and cultures – up from 30 percent in 1998. Only a minority of people – 25 percent – felt Asian people did not mix well with New Zealanders; this is the lowest level ever recorded by the survey. Those who had more involvement with Asian cultures or knowledge of Asia reported more positive views about Asia and Asian peoples.</p>
</blockquote> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="572142" data-time="1460600003">
<div>
<p>Asia NZ does some interesting research each year: <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.asianz.org.nz/bulletin/perceptions-asia-2015-survey'>http://www.asianz.org.nz/bulletin/perceptions-asia-2015-survey</a></p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think that shows that people think of culture differently here than they do in Europe. We think of culture in terms of countries or groups of countries, in Europe it is more about a culture of beliefs.</p>
<p>It is strong/bad belief systems that cause issues, not nationality.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="572142" data-time="1460600003">
<div>
<p>Asia NZ does some interesting research each year: <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.asianz.org.nz/bulletin/perceptions-asia-2015-survey'>http://www.asianz.org.nz/bulletin/perceptions-asia-2015-survey</a></p>
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</blockquote>
<p>My perception has changed as I have matured.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>We have more and more people with an asian background leading as role models etc in NZ. For me, curerntly Jason Tan (TAB Trackside Pundit) Lydia Ko and Peter Sun (Professor at Waikato Uni)</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I don't know that 20 years ago, I would have seen or thought the same</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="572148" data-time="1460600795">
<div>
<p>My perception has changed as I have matured.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>We have more and more people with an asian background leading as role models etc in NZ. For me, curerntly Jason Tan (TAB Trackside Pundit) Lydia Ko and Peter Sun (Professor at Waikato Uni)</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I don't know that 20 years ago, I would have seen or thought the same</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>Tell me about it. I used to look at the Asian students at Uni like they were from another planet. Ended up marrying one. A British born and raised one, but still an Asian.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Having lived in Asia for 11 years, I'm fully immersed. But I appreciate that may others aren't, and also, that many who don't want to be are being forced into it.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="572143" data-time="1460600436">
<div>
<p>I think that shows that people think of culture differently here than they do in Europe. We think of culture in terms of countries or groups of countries, in Europe it is more about a culture of beliefs.</p>
<p><strong>It is strong/bad belief systems that cause issues, not nationality.</strong></p>
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<p> </p>
<p>This is the point I/we are trying to get across. It's nothing to do with nationality or race. It's that beliefs/ideas are protected if they are religious. If you criticise a religion (particularly Islam at the moment) you are screamed down as a "bigot" or "Islamaphobic". Which is completely ridiculous. No ideas or beliefs should ever be above criticism, no matter how harsh. The most common argument is "I know Muslim people and they are nice! Those terrorists don't represent them!". Which is of course true. But the terrorists <em>do</em> represent Islam.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="572164" data-time="1460602617">
<div>
<p>This is the point I/we are trying to get across. It's nothing to do with nationality or race. It's that beliefs/ideas are protected if they are religious. If you criticise a religion (particularly Islam at the moment) you are screamed down as a "bigot" or "Islamaphobic". Which is completely ridiculous. No ideas or beliefs should ever be above criticism, no matter how harsh. The most common argument is "I know Muslim people and they are nice! Those terrorists don't represent them!". Which is of course true. <strong>But the terrorists <em>do</em> represent Islam.</strong></p>
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<p> </p>
<p>That will cause debate... but not from me.</p>
<p>I think they do represent Islam, do they represent all Muslims view of Islam? No. But a significant amount.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="571994" data-time="1460546113">
<div>
<p> TBH I find some of the reactionary stuff on here to be comical. Hell, even Enoch Powell would crack up at some of the end of civilisation comments on this thread. </p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Ok.. I have looked. And I cannot see any end of civilisation comments in this thread. Can you actually point them out, unless you were just making it up?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="572000" data-time="1460548050">
<div>
<p> See this is why it's so tiresome talking with you. And probably why others don't join in.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You expect so much clarity and evidence and explanation from others but then you just twist or lie or obfuscate what people quite reasonably offer</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I stated several times that the reason I don't want to read the article or watch the show is because it comes from a company whose sole existence relies on ratings. My opinion is not based on "precisely nothing" as you assert</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You throw around the word "pathetic" in order to solely denigrate people. You even admit that you don't know how reliable the source is. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I said I'd rather SEEK to understand why non muslims become terrorists. What's so difficult about that?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You spoil this place for others</p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I find it more tiresome that you engage in a discussion about an article that you refuse to read. </p>
<p>You contradicted yourself quite obviously... that is a clear indication of muddled logic in the post. Yes I do expect clarity, evidence and explanation. I am not going to apologise for that. As for you accusing me of lying. Perhaps a specific example would be more useful so I could address the accusation. </p>
<p>It seems more like you are annoyed because I pointed out the contradictions in your own post, disagreed with your own assertion and discounted your views because you refuse to actually read the article that is being discussed, based on spurious logic. i.e That the former human rights commissioner and left wing politician is biased against Muslims, despite his resume making it clear that is not the case.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="572176" data-time="1460604196">
<div>
<p>Nepia! There literally has to be those exact words otherwise people just won't get it. Nothing implied, please.</p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>ok.. where was it implied?</p> -
<div> </div>
<div>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">Why is it an accepted and irreversible norm for mass immigration of Muslims to the west? Why cannot NZ simply stop Muslim immigration? It may be to late for Europe to stop the invasion, but should they just capitulate and let a political religion take over?
<p> </p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I did write this, which could be taken as an end of civilization comment, but only if you wanted to. I don't see it that way.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="572178" data-time="1460604249">
<div>
<p>I find it more tiresome that you engage in a discussion about an article that you refuse to read. </p>
<p>You contradicted yourself quite obviously... that is a clear indication of muddled logic in the post. Yes I do expect clarity, evidence and explanation. I am not going to apologise for that. As for you accusing me of lying. Perhaps a specific example would be more useful so I could address the accusation. </p>
<p>It seems more like you are annoyed because I pointed out the contradictions in your own post, disagreed with your own assertion and discounted your views because you refuse to actually read the article that is being discussed, based on spurious logic. i.e That the former human rights commissioner and left wing politician is biased against Muslims, despite his resume making it clear that is not the case.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>noted</p> -
With respect Siam, this can't simply be dismissed as a just a "Channel 4 doco". That might have berb the case if the guy in charge was a Ukiper or BNP member. But it's the exact opposite. He's actually the guy who coined or at least popularised the term "Islamaphobia".
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="572200" data-time="1460608004">
<div>
<p>With respect Siam, this can't simply be dismissed as a just a "Channel 4 doco". That might have berb the case if the guy in charge was a Ukiper or BNP member. But it's the exact opposite. He's actually the guy who coined or at least popularised the term "Islamaphobia".</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>And lets not forget that we all lament a lack of quality journalism, too much Gypsy Wedding! And a channel does look deeper at an important issue and it is discounted because it is on a channel that has ads.</p> -
<p>5 quotes on an article ostensibly advertising a TV show is hardly a cure all for the problems of British multiculturalism. It's an advertisement for a tv show</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Think you might be over egging this a bit</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Sure it contains encouraging quotes but I know there are community based projects working daily on society integration which achieve much more than a guy speaking to a newspaper. These programs actually reach the people we'd like to educate. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>here's one we can relate to. It's got Moeen Ali as a spokesman. Surely you agree he can reach affected people better than a rich white male</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.chancetoshine.org/'>http://www.chancetoshine.org/</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Do you want to solve the problem or have white wealthy males all nodding in agreement that we're all in big trouble?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>What impact or exposure to a telegraph article and a C4 tv show will have to the people in these ghettoes? </p> -
Trevor Phillips is black.
The Failed policy of Multiculturalism