-
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="599070" data-time="1469225359">
<div>
<p>FFS Cato, he's pretty adamant that those were the decisive factors that put leave over the top. I'm simply asking him to prove it beyond vague references to having watched it on the telly.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I mentioned Norway because it shows that people do not just vote against the EU based on xenophobia and stupidity or because the dumb plebs are just uninformed.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>OK mate fair point on No1 and to an extent on No2.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>We will all have our view on stay or go and probably will not move on this until all the shitstorm has cleared. I voted to remain because I prefer a degree of certainty or at least a "devil you know" type of certainty to the total opposite. The thing that puts the sand in my panties over all this though is not the result, not even the blatant lies and absolute bollocks spouted by both sides but the stupidity of how the thing was managed and the fact (as reprobate said above) that those who "won" don't have to impleemnt the decision and have pretty much run away from any responsibility. Of course I'm not surprised at this at all, not even disillusioned, just plain tired of it all really. I'm hoping against all hope that Theresa May actually has some balls and stands up for something. Anything really (almost), just so we can get some fucking direction.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="599069" data-time="1469225009">
<div>
<p>Yes invoke Winger, that certainly makes you the bigger man.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>My point is that saying you saw stuff on the telly doesn't prove your assertion that leave won because their voters were stupid and uninformed. 16.8 million people voted leave. When you get a number that high saying that Turks and NHS money were the decisive factors is more than a little simplistic. You're also talking as if you know exactly what form Brexit will take. So how can you say people were fooled or didn't get what they want when nothing has even been decided yet?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I'm astonished by people not living in the UK, not reading, watching or hearing the pre & post Brexit interviews categoriocally sayinbg there were a lot of reasons, and EU movement of people wasn't the core driver</p>
<p> </p>
<p>From the Times this weekend -</p>
<p> </p>
<p>‘Why do they give all our jobs to foreigners?’ </p>
<p>Brexit.Andrew Norfolk visits Grimethorpe in South Yorkshire, where anger over immigration drove voters to choose Brexit</p>
<p>2059 words</p>
<p> </p>
<p>He barely raises his head to explain, almost apologetically, that “You just feel let down by how things have happened around hereâ€. Asked why he voted Leave, there is a brief glance up to make eye contact. The gaze is one of defiance, tinged with a hint of despair. “Why not? We’ve tried everything else.†The former miner lives in a South Yorkshire village that our nation left behind. In the EU referendum, it hit back. To spend a day in Grimethorpe was to begin to understand why so many people in Labour’s northern heartlands chose Brexit. And why Ukip is licking its lips. A few locals said that they voted Out to kick the Tories; to stick a finger up to “the rich and the eliteâ€.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Others wanted to “take back our islandâ€. Some seemingly yearned to rewind history, to return to a past that no longer exists. O<em><strong>verwhelmingly, however, the voters of Grimethorpe went to their local polling stations — in numbers unprecedented in recent years — to signal anger, confusion, bitterness and fear about a single, dominant issue. In this almost all-white village of 4,500 people, five miles from Barnsley, last month’s referendum was all about immigration</strong></em>. More specifically, although residents young and old tended to put it rather more bluntly, their votes were their verdict on the impact of <strong><em>EU freedom of movement rules on English communities where, according to one Labour MP,</em></strong> “a lot of my people have never even been to Londonâ€. For an explanation, one need look no further than the former site of Grimethorpe colliery. On its grave stands a giant industrial park whose two biggest companies employ hundreds of recent arrivals from eastern Europe. They came to the UK because jobs in Grimethorpe were advertised in Poland and Romania. Many villagers feel cast aside in favour of unskilled, low-wage migrant workers who speak no English.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>They do not think that is fair. Big northern cities such as Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool, which all voted Remain, have found it easier to absorb much larger numbers of EU migrants. In the region’s post-industrial towns and villages, small changes have had a much bigger impact. The three most pro-Brexit areas of Yorkshire were the adjoining local authorities of Barnsley, Doncaster and Rotherham, where the combined Leave vote was 68.4 per cent. While the referendum turnout nationally was six percentage points higher than in last year’s general election, across those three councils it jumped by 11 points. All nine Westminster seats are held by Labour MPs who backed Remain. In seven of them, Ukip came second in 2015. In Barnsley alone, more than 20,600 people who did not vote for any party at the general election chose to have their say in the EU referendum. In the council ward that includes Grimethorpe and a couple of neighbouring villages, turnout rose from 5,679 to 6,858.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Here, they say their children’s nursery school places are being handed to Polish children. They want to know why the labels of so many products in the local convenience store are in a language they cannot understand. If this is progress, they don’t want a bar of it. November will bring the 20th anniversary of the release of Brassed Off, the widely acclaimed film about a brass band from a loosely-fictionalised village, Grimley, whose coal mine has been earmarked for closure. It was Grimethorpe’s story, with a soundtrack courtesy of the Grimethorpe Colliery Band. Andy, the band member played by Ewan McGregor, remarks at one point: “The only reason I get up in the morning is to see if my luck’s changed. And it never bloody has.†In this part of South Yorkshire, that sounds about right. Grimethorpe’s reason to exist was its colliery, which began producing coal in 1894. The village was built to serve the pit. In 99 years, 155 people died underground. When it closed in 1993, a community lost its soul. Mass unemployment triggered an exodus of those capable of finding work elsewhere. Houses were abandoned; shops and pubs closed. Cue boarded-up and vandalised properties, soaring crimes levels and a surge in the use of hard drugs by teenagers denied a future. The village was dying. What ensued was a remarkable regeneration programme that from 1997 to 2010 pumped £165 million of public and private-sector investment into one fractured community. The contribution from local and national government, plus significant EU funding, totalled £67 million.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Contaminated land was reclaimed and a new link road built. Derelict houses were demolished and replaced by 600 new homes. At the heart of the project was the new industrial estate. Its biggest companies are Asos, the UK’s biggest independent online fashion retailer, and Symphony Group, Britain’s largest privately-owned manufacturer of fitted kitchen and bedroom furniture. Locals claim that most employees at both companies are foreign nationals. Asos has a giant distribution warehouse the size of six football pitches. Its management is outsourced to a global logistics company, XPO, that employs 4,000 people at the site. <strong><em>Symphony has 800 production workers at its Grimethorpe factory, less than half of whom are UK nationals. An estimated 430 employees are EU migrants, 96 per cent of them from Poland.</em></strong> Asos declined to provide a nationality breakdown for its 4,000 warehouse workers, many of whom are thought to be Polish or Romanian. Both companies admitted using agencies that recruit overseas. Symphony said that jobs were advertised in Poland to meet vacancies it was “unable to fill from the local areaâ€.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>An XPO spokesperson said that it selected “the best talent for our organisation irrespective of background, race or any other factorâ€. Asos said that it focused on “providing jobs for the people of Grimethorpe and the wider Barnsley community†but it was “not always possible to fill all our roles locallyâ€. None of which batters many haddocks at Grimethorpe’s White City Chippy, where <strong><em>Chelsea Priestley told of the day she went for a job interview at Asos. “Me and my mam went and there was a load of Polish people there, talking all jibber-jabber. We turned up, had an interview, then they took us to one side and said they didn’t want us. They gave the jobs to the foreigners. It’s not fair. This is our town.†Ms Priestley, 26, proceeded to conduct a guided tour of the small convenience store next door, which was indeed “full of Polish stuff†including an impressive variety of sausages and 17 brands of Polish beer. “All this bread’s Polish as well. We can’t read the labels. It’s disgusting and it needs sorting out. If I went over to Poland, d’you think they’d have a Warburton’s loaf for me?â€</em></strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p>The store’s owner, who said that Polish products amounted to 20 per cent of his sales, was the only person in Grimethorpe who told The Times that he voted Remain. It almost sounded like a confession. His name was Parimal Odedara and he happened to be visiting for the day. He lives in Leicester. Ms Priestley’s friend, 22-year-old Jessica Kearford, has a son aged four. She was told that there was no available place for him at the nursery school 100 yards from her home, where there were “lots of Polish childrenâ€. Ms Kearford’s son was instead offered a nursery place in a neighbouring village. She is awaiting the outcome of her appeal against the local authority’s decision. “Why’s my son not allowed to go to that school? Why are Polish children getting places that British kids don’t get? It’s like they’ve got more rights than us. Say something about it and you’re classed as racist, but we’re not. It’s about equal rights. They’re getting more than us.†Both women voted proudly for Brexit. Ms Kearford spent referendum day telling “everyone I saw, at least 50 family and friends, to make sure they got themselves down to that polling station to vote Outâ€. Perceived injustice breeds resentment and tension. Locals spoke of foreigners “breeding like rabbitsâ€, living 30 to a house, “walking around with no respect for othersâ€. A 19-year-old man who voted Leave gave a two-word explanation: “The Polish.†One Polish woman, 23, said she could “feel the hostility of English people whenever I pick up my son†from his primary school. Four of the 42 children in his class are Poles. The young woman, too scared to give her name, lives in Grimethorpe with her British boyfriend. They have bought a house in the village. Her mother and sister live ten miles away in Wakefield. “Everyone thinks Polish people come here to take their jobs, or that we’re all on benefits, but we work really hard for everything. We pay tax here and spend money here, but now we’re all worried that we’re going to be sent back. I earn the same here in one week, £200-£300, as I could earn in a month in Poland.â€</p>
<p> </p>
<p>At the working men’s club, a five-minute downhill stroll from the chippy, the wake for a former NUM official was in full swing. Johnny Wood, 58, a former miner who is now a postman, said that displays of xenophobia were a regrettable consequence of “the undermining of local communitiesâ€. “When the pit closed, I saw grown men crying. They didn’t know where to turn or what to do. When I come into the village today and see all those [industrial] units, I get a bit angry. They’re bringing in people from other countries and actually going to those countries to recruit. They know full well they’ll work for next to nothing.†Noting that the eastern European arrivals were as white as their Grimethorpe-born neighbours, Mr Wood suggested that if the British locals were black “you’d all be holding up the race card and saying we were victims of discrimination, and rightly soâ€. Until the last moment, he had intended to vote Remain “to protect union rights†but finally decided tha<strong><em>t “we’ve got to vote Out to control ’us own countryâ€</em></strong>. Of those he spoke to on his postal round during the referendum campaign, “out of 70 or 80 there were only two people who said they were voting for Remainâ€.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Anti-EU hostility was not confined to Grimethorpe. In Barnsley, the official Labour Remain campaign cancelled a scheduled street stall in the town centre on the day before the vote. It was felt to be too dangerous. Jonny Walker, a pro-Remain busker and Labour activist who defied warnings to stay away from Barnsley on the same day, said he was advised by organisers that “people’s safety couldn’t be guaranteedâ€. “The day before, an elderly man had been punched while handing out Remain literature. I thought we shouldn’t let fear win, so I turned up with my busking gear, a lot of leaflets and a big ‘Labour In For Britain’ poster. The atmosphere was really hostile. “People told me I had a nerve, coming to their town. They started talking to street wardens, trying to move me on. One angry woman in her 40s came up, took the poster, tore it up and threw it in the bin. Another woman told me to f*** off. She said I wasn’t welcome.†Might Ukip mirror the SNP’s conquest of Labour in Scotland by persuading the party’s northern strongholds to desert en masse, lured by a simplistic but seductive mantra of anti-elitism and anti-immigration?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Steven Woolfe, odds-on favourites to become the party’s next leader, called last week on the party to “go ruthlessly after Labour seats in the north and the Midlandsâ€. In Grimethorpe, opinion among lifelong Labour voters was divided. Mr Wood thought that the referendum result was a one-off howl of outrage from people who would probably return to the Labour fold at a general election, though he admitted that he was a lot less certain of such tribal loyalties than he would have been 20 years ago. A 68-year-old man who would not give his name, but who said he worked at the colliery for 23 years and has lived in the village since the days “when no one locked their front doorsâ€, was far more doubtful. “There’s an old saying in Yorkshire, cock. Tha’ can put a donkey up for Labour and they’ll get in. We’ve always been staunch Labour here, but Nigel Farage was right.<strong><em> We don’t want any more immigrants</em></strong>. That’s what swung the referendum. “Jeremy Corbyn will never lead Labour into power. We’ve got lads and lasses finishing college who end up flipping burgers ’cos there’s no work for them, while Poles come over here and walk straight into a job. Why don’t Labour and Ukip put themselves together and form a proper party?â€</p> -
<p>As mentioned, perhaps it's best to wait until a final agreement is in place before drawing conclusions:</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>Brexit: EU considers migration ‘emergency brake’ for UK for up to seven years</strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/24/brexit-deal-free-movement-exemption-seven-years'>https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/24/brexit-deal-free-movement-exemption-seven-years</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>BTW, wasn't it Turks and NHS you were banging on about?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="600164" data-time="1469444692">
<div>
<p>As mentioned, perhaps it's best to wait until a final agreement is in place before drawing conclusions:</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>Brexit: EU considers migration ‘emergency brake’ for UK for up to seven years</strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/24/brexit-deal-free-movement-exemption-seven-years'>https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/24/brexit-deal-free-movement-exemption-seven-years</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>BTW, wasn't it Turks and NHS you were banging on about?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>First, no, I was banging on about EU right to movemnent, the Turks & the NHS were brought in when we verred over to "things that were lied about". Thjo' good of you to graciously concede that right to movement is the core thing.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Re the emergency brake that is on the table (in theory) in that article, you mean the same EB that Cameron got in Feb?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>IE the same thing the Brexit voters rejected? Thats your example of them getting the deal they want? </p> -
If you'd bother to read the article it says "greater concessions than those won by David Cameron". <br><br>
It also states that it was "very early days". In other words no agreement has been reached on anything. So how can you say that people were fooled or lied to when nothing has even been agreed to? -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="600171" data-time="1469446592">
<div>
<p>If you'd bother to read the article it says "greater concessions than those won by David Cameron".<br><br>
It also states that it was "very early days". In other words no agreement has been reached on anything. So how can you say that people were fooled or lied to when nothing has even been agreed to?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Did you read this bit -</p>
<p> </p>
<p>"The Dutch MEP Hans van Baalen, who is president of the Liberal group in the European parliament and a member of the same party as Dutch prime minster Mark Rutte, said the plan should be taken forward, <em><strong>but would require the UK to give firm assurances about the right of EU citizens currently living and working in Britain to remain in the country</strong></em>."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Or are you back to saying Brexit wasn't about that?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="600174" data-time="1469446949">
<div>
<p>Did you read this bit -</p>
<p> </p>
<p>"The Dutch MEP Hans van Baalen, who is president of the Liberal group in the European parliament and a member of the same party as Dutch prime minster Mark Rutte, said the plan should be taken forward, <em><strong>but would require the UK to give firm assurances about the right of EU citizens currently living and working in Britain to remain in the country</strong></em>."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Or are you back to saying Brexit wasn't about that?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>So it was all about turfing them out now? The decisive factor in Leave winning was being able to chuck out the Poles? What about the Turks and the NHS?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And answer my question. How can you say that people have been fooled or lied to when a final agreement is still a long way from being reached?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="600182" data-time="1469449092">
<div>
<p>So it was all about turfing them out now? The decisive factor in Leave winning was being able to chuck out the Poles? What about the Turks and the NHS?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And answer my question. How can you say that people have been fooled or lied to when a final agreement is still a long way from being reached?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Go back & read what I wrote. The core of brexit was freeddom of movement. I've been consistant on that from page 1. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>NHS & Turks (which is by definition <strong><em>part of freedom of movement FFS</em></strong> - how do you think they were getting here? Turkey joins EU, gets Freedom of Movement. come to UK) were just other lies peddled. I've been saying the core is FoM, you've been saying "Thats just your opinion!!" </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Then you utterly ignored an article spelling it out because, well, turns out not just my opinion....</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="600182" data-time="1469449092">
<div>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>And answer my question. How can you say that people have been fooled or lied to when a final agreement is still a long way from being reached?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Ok,</p>
<p> </p>
<ul><li>EU migrants sent back - thats a lie, that has zero chance of happening, even at this very early stage the UK <em>are not asking for that</em>, have not even fucking mentioned it & in the article YOU linked to it's one of the core things that must be off the table</li>
<li>Turks coming - nope, they are not. You honestly think Turkey is just about to be given right to join? Now? after being held off for 20 years, NOW in your opinion is when they get let in?</li>
<li>NHS will get £350m funding - nope<em> Farage himself scotched that one the day after the election</em>. Literally the day after.</li>
<li>Freedom of Movement gone - with access to the free market - nope, zero chance. If the EU hand that over France votes to exit, as does Hungary & a whole swathe others. Norway has access in exchange for FoM, if the UK get access with no FoM why would Norway not immediately pull out & demand the same? The Norway model was held up pre vote - the Norway model is built on FoM! If you can get full access & have closed borders you don't have an EU, you have NAFTA. FoM has been the cornerstone of the EU since day 1. If that's on the table the EU ceases to exist What <em>might </em>be on the table is a temporary emergency break - which is what Cameron successfully got & the Brexit vote didn't want. Its very much NOT what they voted for. Saying "look they've got a EB!!" when Brexit voters just voted to not take that & saying its a win is farcial. </li>
</ul><p> </p>
<p>Same in the US, you don't have to wait & see what Trump can do, anyone who vaguely understands the US knows he 100% cannot build a wall with Mexico (let alone make Mexico pay for it) or ban Muslims, but those 2 are repeated over & over.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In the real world there is shit that anyone vaguely sane knows cannot be done.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The irony is voters are (rightly) pissed at being lied to by polititians and as a result they are voting for more blatent lies. We are literally at the point where I offer every household a Unicorn that shits rainbows & rather than saying "you can't deliver that" people go "hang on, you don't know what he can deliver!!"</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="600184" data-time="1469451177">
<div>
<p>Go back & read what I wrote. The core of brexit was freeddom of movement. I've been consistant on that from page 1. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>NHS & Turks (which is by definition <strong><em>part of freedom of movement FFS</em></strong> - how do you think they were getting here? Turkey joins EU, gets Freedom of Movement. come to UK) were just other lies peddled. I've been saying the core is FoM, you've been saying "Thats just your opinion!!" </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Then you utterly ignored an article spelling it out because, well, turns out not just my opinion....</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Ok,</p>
<p> </p>
<ul><li>EU migrants sent back - thats a lie, that has zero chance of happening, even at this very early stage the UK <em>are not asking for that</em>, have not even fucking mentioned it & in the article YOU linked to it's one of the core things that must be off the table</li>
<li>Turks coming - nope, they are not. You honestly think Turkey is just about to be given right to join? Now? after being held off for 20 years, NOW in your opinion is when they get let in?</li>
<li>NHS will get £350m funding - nope<em> Farage himself scotched that one the day after the election</em>. Literally the day after.</li>
<li>Freedom of Movement gone - with access to the free market - nope, zero chance. If the EU hand that over France votes to exit, as does Hungary & a whole swathe others. Norway has access in exchange for FoM, if the UK get access with no FoM why would Norway not immediately pull out & demand the same? The Norway model was held up pre vote - the Norway model is built on FoM! If you can get full access & have closed borders you don't have an EU, you have NAFTA. FoM has been the cornerstone of the EU since day 1. If that's on the table the EU ceases to exist What <em>might </em>be on the table is a temporary emergency break - which is what Cameron successfully got & the Brexit vote didn't want. Its very much NOT what they voted for. Saying "look they've got a EB!!" when Brexit voters just voted to not take that & saying its a win is farcial. </li>
</ul><p> </p>
<p>Same in the US, you don't have to wait & see what Trump can do, anyone who vaguely understands the US knows he 100% cannot build a wall with Mexico (let alone make Mexico pay for it) or ban Muslims, but those 2 are repeated over & over.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In the real world there is shit that anyone vaguely sane knows cannot be done.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The irony is voters are (rightly) pissed at being lied to by polititians and as a result they are voting for more blatent lies. We are literally at the point where I offer every household a Unicorn that shits rainbows & rather than saying "you can't deliver that" people go "hang on, you don't know what he can deliver!!"</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Freedom of movement and throwing out EU citizens who are currently UK residents are two completely different things. Are you saying that the decisive factor was people thinking that they could chuck out the Poles? Did the Leave campaign actually say that they would chuck out all EU citizens residing in the UK?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As for the rest, you can write another fucking novel if you want, but the fact remains that nothing has been agreed to.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="600186" data-time="1469452724">
<div>
<p>Freedom of movement and throwing out EU citizens who are currently UK residents are two completely different things. <strong><em>Are you saying that the decisive factor was people thinking that they could chuck out the Poles? Did the Leave campaign actually say that they would chuck out all EU citizens residing in the UK</em></strong>?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As for the rest, you can write another fucking novel if you want, but the fact remains that nothing has been agreed to.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I'm saying (and EVERY POLL TAKEN says) <strong><em>people voted for that</em></strong> and it cannot be delivered. You don't have to trust me on that, its in The Times, Guardian, FT, Economist, Sun, Daily Mail.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And the article says that. That you didn't read because seemingly you can't be bothered reading more that a tweet <em>despite wanting to be fully informed?</em> By all means be ignorant because reading is hard, but don't then rant about knowing the "facts"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You asked me a question, I answered it (pretty clearly), rather than address it you want to ignore as its beyond your reading theshold? Really?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Since I answered yours, answer mine - do you think the points I highlighted can be delivered?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="600125" data-time="1469437013"><p>I'm astonished by people not living in the UK, not reading, watching or hearing the pre & post Brexit interviews categoriocally sayinbg there were a lot of reasons, and EU movement of people wasn't the core driver<br>
<br>
From the Times this weekend -<br>
<br>
‘Why do they give all our jobs to foreigners?’ <br>
Brexit.Andrew Norfolk visits Grimethorpe in South Yorkshire, where anger over immigration drove voters to choose Brexit<br>
2059 words<br>
<br>
He barely raises his head to explain, almost apologetically, that “You just feel let down by how things have happened around hereâ€. Asked why he voted Leave, there is a brief glance up to make eye contact. The gaze is one of defiance, tinged with a hint of despair. “Why not? We’ve tried everything else.†The former miner lives in a South Yorkshire village that our nation left behind. In the EU referendum, it hit back. To spend a day in Grimethorpe was to begin to understand why so many people in Labour’s northern heartlands chose Brexit. And why Ukip is licking its lips. A few locals said that they voted Out to kick the Tories; to stick a finger up to “the rich and the eliteâ€.<br>
<br>
Others wanted to “take back our islandâ€. Some seemingly yearned to rewind history, to return to a past that no longer exists. O<em><strong>verwhelmingly, however, the voters of Grimethorpe went to their local polling stations — in numbers unprecedented in recent years — to signal anger, confusion, bitterness and fear about a single, dominant issue. In this almost all-white village of 4,500 people, five miles from Barnsley, last month’s referendum was all about immigration</strong></em>. More specifically, although residents young and old tended to put it rather more bluntly, their votes were their verdict on the impact of <strong><em>EU freedom of movement rules on English communities where, according to one Labour MP,</em></strong> “a lot of my people have never even been to Londonâ€. For an explanation, one need look no further than the former site of Grimethorpe colliery. On its grave stands a giant industrial park whose two biggest companies employ hundreds of recent arrivals from eastern Europe. They came to the UK because jobs in Grimethorpe were advertised in Poland and Romania. Many villagers feel cast aside in favour of unskilled, low-wage migrant workers who speak no English.<br>
<br>
They do not think that is fair. Big northern cities such as Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool, which all voted Remain, have found it easier to absorb much larger numbers of EU migrants. In the region’s post-industrial towns and villages, small changes have had a much bigger impact. The three most pro-Brexit areas of Yorkshire were the adjoining local authorities of Barnsley, Doncaster and Rotherham, where the combined Leave vote was 68.4 per cent. While the referendum turnout nationally was six percentage points higher than in last year’s general election, across those three councils it jumped by 11 points. All nine Westminster seats are held by Labour MPs who backed Remain. In seven of them, Ukip came second in 2015. In Barnsley alone, more than 20,600 people who did not vote for any party at the general election chose to have their say in the EU referendum. In the council ward that includes Grimethorpe and a couple of neighbouring villages, turnout rose from 5,679 to 6,858.<br>
<br>
Here, they say their children’s nursery school places are being handed to Polish children. They want to know why the labels of so many products in the local convenience store are in a language they cannot understand. If this is progress, they don’t want a bar of it. November will bring the 20th anniversary of the release of Brassed Off, the widely acclaimed film about a brass band from a loosely-fictionalised village, Grimley, whose coal mine has been earmarked for closure. It was Grimethorpe’s story, with a soundtrack courtesy of the Grimethorpe Colliery Band. Andy, the band member played by Ewan McGregor, remarks at one point: “The only reason I get up in the morning is to see if my luck’s changed. And it never bloody has.†In this part of South Yorkshire, that sounds about right. Grimethorpe’s reason to exist was its colliery, which began producing coal in 1894. The village was built to serve the pit. In 99 years, 155 people died underground. When it closed in 1993, a community lost its soul. Mass unemployment triggered an exodus of those capable of finding work elsewhere. Houses were abandoned; shops and pubs closed. Cue boarded-up and vandalised properties, soaring crimes levels and a surge in the use of hard drugs by teenagers denied a future. The village was dying. What ensued was a remarkable regeneration programme that from 1997 to 2010 pumped £165 million of public and private-sector investment into one fractured community. The contribution from local and national government, plus significant EU funding, totalled £67 million.<br>
<br>
Contaminated land was reclaimed and a new link road built. Derelict houses were demolished and replaced by 600 new homes. At the heart of the project was the new industrial estate. Its biggest companies are Asos, the UK’s biggest independent online fashion retailer, and Symphony Group, Britain’s largest privately-owned manufacturer of fitted kitchen and bedroom furniture. Locals claim that most employees at both companies are foreign nationals. Asos has a giant distribution warehouse the size of six football pitches. Its management is outsourced to a global logistics company, XPO, that employs 4,000 people at the site. <strong><em>Symphony has 800 production workers at its Grimethorpe factory, less than half of whom are UK nationals. An estimated 430 employees are EU migrants, 96 per cent of them from Poland.</em></strong> Asos declined to provide a nationality breakdown for its 4,000 warehouse workers, many of whom are thought to be Polish or Romanian. Both companies admitted using agencies that recruit overseas. Symphony said that jobs were advertised in Poland to meet vacancies it was “unable to fill from the local areaâ€.<br>
<br>
An XPO spokesperson said that it selected “the best talent for our organisation irrespective of background, race or any other factorâ€. Asos said that it focused on “providing jobs for the people of Grimethorpe and the wider Barnsley community†but it was “not always possible to fill all our roles locallyâ€. None of which batters many haddocks at Grimethorpe’s White City Chippy, where <strong><em>Chelsea Priestley told of the day she went for a job interview at Asos. “Me and my mam went and there was a load of Polish people there, talking all jibber-jabber. We turned up, had an interview, then they took us to one side and said they didn’t want us. They gave the jobs to the foreigners. It’s not fair. This is our town.†Ms Priestley, 26, proceeded to conduct a guided tour of the small convenience store next door, which was indeed “full of Polish stuff†including an impressive variety of sausages and 17 brands of Polish beer. “All this bread’s Polish as well. We can’t read the labels. It’s disgusting and it needs sorting out. If I went over to Poland, d’you think they’d have a Warburton’s loaf for me?â€</em></strong><br>
<br>
The store’s owner, who said that Polish products amounted to 20 per cent of his sales, was the only person in Grimethorpe who told The Times that he voted Remain. It almost sounded like a confession. His name was Parimal Odedara and he happened to be visiting for the day. He lives in Leicester. Ms Priestley’s friend, 22-year-old Jessica Kearford, has a son aged four. She was told that there was no available place for him at the nursery school 100 yards from her home, where there were “lots of Polish childrenâ€. Ms Kearford’s son was instead offered a nursery place in a neighbouring village. She is awaiting the outcome of her appeal against the local authority’s decision. “Why’s my son not allowed to go to that school? Why are Polish children getting places that British kids don’t get? It’s like they’ve got more rights than us. Say something about it and you’re classed as racist, but we’re not. It’s about equal rights. They’re getting more than us.†Both women voted proudly for Brexit. Ms Kearford spent referendum day telling “everyone I saw, at least 50 family and friends, to make sure they got themselves down to that polling station to vote Outâ€. Perceived injustice breeds resentment and tension. Locals spoke of foreigners “breeding like rabbitsâ€, living 30 to a house, “walking around with no respect for othersâ€. A 19-year-old man who voted Leave gave a two-word explanation: “The Polish.†One Polish woman, 23, said she could “feel the hostility of English people whenever I pick up my son†from his primary school. Four of the 42 children in his class are Poles. The young woman, too scared to give her name, lives in Grimethorpe with her British boyfriend. They have bought a house in the village. Her mother and sister live ten miles away in Wakefield. “Everyone thinks Polish people come here to take their jobs, or that we’re all on benefits, but we work really hard for everything. We pay tax here and spend money here, but now we’re all worried that we’re going to be sent back. I earn the same here in one week, £200-£300, as I could earn in a month in Poland.â€<br>
<br>
At the working men’s club, a five-minute downhill stroll from the chippy, the wake for a former NUM official was in full swing. Johnny Wood, 58, a former miner who is now a postman, said that displays of xenophobia were a regrettable consequence of “the undermining of local communitiesâ€. “When the pit closed, I saw grown men crying. They didn’t know where to turn or what to do. When I come into the village today and see all those [industrial] units, I get a bit angry. They’re bringing in people from other countries and actually going to those countries to recruit. They know full well they’ll work for next to nothing.†Noting that the eastern European arrivals were as white as their Grimethorpe-born neighbours, Mr Wood suggested that if the British locals were black “you’d all be holding up the race card and saying we were victims of discrimination, and rightly soâ€. Until the last moment, he had intended to vote Remain “to protect union rights†but finally decided tha<strong><em>t “we’ve got to vote Out to control ’us own countryâ€</em></strong>. Of those he spoke to on his postal round during the referendum campaign, “out of 70 or 80 there were only two people who said they were voting for Remainâ€.<br>
<br>
Anti-EU hostility was not confined to Grimethorpe. In Barnsley, the official Labour Remain campaign cancelled a scheduled street stall in the town centre on the day before the vote. It was felt to be too dangerous. Jonny Walker, a pro-Remain busker and Labour activist who defied warnings to stay away from Barnsley on the same day, said he was advised by organisers that “people’s safety couldn’t be guaranteedâ€. “The day before, an elderly man had been punched while handing out Remain literature. I thought we shouldn’t let fear win, so I turned up with my busking gear, a lot of leaflets and a big ‘Labour In For Britain’ poster. The atmosphere was really hostile. “People told me I had a nerve, coming to their town. They started talking to street wardens, trying to move me on. One angry woman in her 40s came up, took the poster, tore it up and threw it in the bin. Another woman told me to f*** off. She said I wasn’t welcome.†Might Ukip mirror the SNP’s conquest of Labour in Scotland by persuading the party’s northern strongholds to desert en masse, lured by a simplistic but seductive mantra of anti-elitism and anti-immigration?<br>
<br>
Steven Woolfe, odds-on favourites to become the party’s next leader, called last week on the party to “go ruthlessly after Labour seats in the north and the Midlandsâ€. In Grimethorpe, opinion among lifelong Labour voters was divided. Mr Wood thought that the referendum result was a one-off howl of outrage from people who would probably return to the Labour fold at a general election, though he admitted that he was a lot less certain of such tribal loyalties than he would have been 20 years ago. A 68-year-old man who would not give his name, but who said he worked at the colliery for 23 years and has lived in the village since the days “when no one locked their front doorsâ€, was far more doubtful. “There’s an old saying in Yorkshire, cock. Tha’ can put a donkey up for Labour and they’ll get in. We’ve always been staunch Labour here, but Nigel Farage was right.<strong><em> We don’t want any more immigrants</em></strong>. That’s what swung the referendum. “Jeremy Corbyn will never lead Labour into power. We’ve got lads and lasses finishing college who end up flipping burgers ’cos there’s no work for them, while Poles come over here and walk straight into a job. Why don’t Labour and Ukip put themselves together and form a proper party?â€</p></blockquote>Do you mean this article that quotes English people in Grimethorpe who voted brexit because they don't want dirty Poles in their town taking all the jobs? -
What's this shit about tweets? Your obsessed with people reading tweets when none are even mentioned. <br><br>
So, according to you the Leave campaign said:<br><br>
"Vote leave. We'll chuck out all the EU citizens."<br><br>
And 16 million odd people voted because of that?<br><br>
I have to say that I'm just a wee bit skeptical. I'm sure Leave said they'd cut migration, but did they actually say they would turf out all the EU citizens?<br><br>
In response to your question. Unlike your apparent ability to look into the future (not to mention enter the mind of every Leave voter) I don't know what the final agreement will be. Which is what I've said about 5 times now. I thought you would have realised that since reading is not so hard for you. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="600190" data-time="1469454679">
<div>
<p>In response to your question. Unlike your apparent ability to look into the future (not to mention enter the mind of every Leave voter) I don't know what the final agreement will be. Which is what I've said about 5 times now. I thought you would have realised that since reading is not so hard for you.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>But you don't get the difference between believing in shit that can't be done & waiting & seeing? IE if I promise you a rainbow shitting unicorn will you actually wait & see if I deliver it before you ask for your money back?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>How far back do you scale it? IE at what stage do you have pledges that are rubbish but you are OK believing? A border wall? Full access & secured borders? This year has been a shitshow of polititians blatently lying & people being so desperate to belive that they just go with it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Prior election cycles we had bullshit, but it was either vague ("I'll clean up wall street!"), of technically deliverable ("more jobs for high school leavers!"). And they've been lies, but you didn't need to utterly disconnect from reality to go with it. 2016 its been "you need to just want this to be true". </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="600190" data-time="1469454679">
<div>
<p>
I have to say that I'm just a wee bit skeptical. I'm sure Leave said they'd cut migration, but did they actually say they would turf out all the EU citizens?<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I've over egged that, no I don't think any of the mainstream Leave guys (Farage, Boris, Gove) promised to kick them out, the issue is more the people voted for that & the fringe groups who you would hope no one took seriously raised it, <em>but very much the fringe only.</em> However you now have a big chunk who voted Brexit thinking thats coming - hence the shit directed at Poles post brexit. Its not going to happen, and thats going to be a problem. </p> -
<p>The thing is the the majority of campaigning never really said anything about actual aims or targets. it was all quite vague but very emotive. There was little in the way of "We will turf out Johnny Foreigner" or "We will curtail immigration and/or freedom of movement in such and such a manner". No, it was all about <i>taking back control of our borders </i>and <em>not being ruled by unelected Brussels bureaucrats</em>. To be fair it was similar in vague rhetoric from the remainders too.</p>
-
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="600174" data-time="1469446949">
<div>
<p>Did you read this bit -</p>
<p> </p>
<p>"The Dutch MEP Hans van Baalen, who is president of the Liberal group in the European parliament and a member of the same party as Dutch prime minster Mark Rutte, said the plan should be taken forward, <em><strong>but would require the UK to give firm assurances about the right of EU citizens currently living and working in Britain to remain in the country</strong></em>."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Or are you back to saying Brexit wasn't about that?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Doesn't matter what one politician says. That is irrelevant as Boris Johnson stating as fact that the EU will allow full access to goods. Both are just bluster and bullshit. I find it amazing some people are acting like the negotiations have happened already. It is almost like some people don't know what negotiations actually are.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>There seems to be some fucked up assumption from the remain supporters that whatever the EU says will happen, will happen.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="600191" data-time="1469455796">
<div>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I've over egged that, no I don't think any of the mainstream Leave guys (Farage, Boris, Gove) promised to kick them out, the issue is more the people voted for that & the fringe groups who you would hope no one took seriously raised it, <em>but very much the fringe only.</em> However you now have a big chunk who voted Brexit thinking thats coming - hence the shit directed at Poles post brexit. Its not going to happen, and thats going to be a problem. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>You over egged something? ok...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And would you please stop with the nonsense claiming to know why people voted, the only fact is that nobody except the individual voters know why they voted. You have absolutely ZERO real evidence to support your claim that a 'big chunk' of Brexit voters want EU citizens to be forced to leave. That is just a narrative. And no, your quaint little article isnt real proof</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="600251" data-time="1469482890">
<div>
<p>You over egged something? ok...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And would you please stop with the nonsense claiming to know why people voted, the only fact is that nobody except the individual voters know why they voted. You have absolutely ZERO real evidence to support your claim that a 'big chunk' of Brexit voters want EU citizens to be forced to leave. That is just a narrative. And no, your quaint little article isnt real proof</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>There is no way any poltician, no matter who they are, will be able to kick people out. The absolute best case scenario for those who voted because they wanted existing to leave (of which I'm sure there are many), is that existing get Grandfathered in & there is a change in regulations only for new applicants.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You just simply cannot kick out people who have set down roots in a country due to a change in political stance.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="600191" data-time="1469455796">
<div>
<p>But you don't get the difference between believing in shit that can't be done & waiting & seeing? IE if I promise you a rainbow shitting unicorn will you actually wait & see if I deliver it before you ask for your money back?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>How far back do you scale it? IE at what stage do you have pledges that are rubbish but you are OK believing? A border wall? Full access & secured borders? This year has been a shitshow of polititians blatently lying & people being so desperate to belive that they just go with it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Prior election cycles we had bullshit, but it was either vague ("I'll clean up wall street!"), of technically deliverable ("more jobs for high school leavers!"). And they've been lies, but you didn't need to utterly disconnect from reality to go with it. 2016 its been "you need to just want this to be true". </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>I've over egged that, </strong>no I don't think any of the mainstream Leave guys (Farage, Boris, Gove) promised to kick them out, the issue is more the people voted for that & the fringe groups who you would hope no one took seriously raised it, <em>but very much the fringe only.</em> However you now have a big chunk who voted Brexit thinking thats coming - hence the shit directed at Poles post brexit. Its not going to happen, and thats going to be a problem. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>You don't fucking say.</p> -
Ok, seems it's already starting to take effect...fucking finally!
https://www.kfc.co.uk/our-food/for-one/burgers/double-down-bacon-burger
-
Ressurrecting this thread as the Brit Politics one has become a clone of all the other threads as an avenue for one sided ideology 'discussion'
Meanwhile the very real problem of implementing Brexit remains an absolute clusterfuck.
'Even Baldrick had a plan' is probably the most concise summary/slogan I have seen.Now Jo Johnson (Boris' less dorky brother) has resigned his cabinet position over the latest plan and, even more frightening, Corbyn has has a security briefing from MI5 in preparation of a possible election.
The latest attempt by May to navigate the waters infested by the Northern Irish sharks she introduced herself has created a plan where absolutely no one gets what they want and the EU walk away pissing themselves with laughter.
Roughly it goes- we leave Europe (kind of)
- we pay Europe £37billion to 'kind of' leave
- we keep all the trade rules and borders as they are (because we only just realised we actually get most of our food that way) AND let Europe decide the rules
- we let all the Euro immigrants stay here and make it easy for them to keep coming
-and we won't enter other trade agreements that might upset Europe - by the way, our biggest money generator (being a world financial capital)? Well, we will let that scatter through Europe as well as the bankers all run for cover as they see our ineptitude.
In years to come history academics are going to be mining this last couple of years for endless examples of how not to manage a country.
Brexit