Azzuri v Bokke



  • Hells bells!!

    Italy won!! 😨



  • Umm? Wot?

    Starting to think we got a genuine shock in Chicago, the Boks in the Rugby Championship are now putting the quality of some games in full perspective.



  • Jeez not good for world rugby this result, NH teams need to do something to help thier poor sh cousins.

    Seriously though, saru is in a deep, deep hole, not good...at least they would get 1 vote to join the 6N....



  • Bloody hell!



  • Japan, Italy... SA fast becoming 2nd tier which is sad for such a proud rugby nation. Fuck racist quota systems, incredible stuff like that is still going on in todays day & age.



  • Is it the quota system or is it something more than that? Are some players not being picked for other reasons ie they don't fit with the new 'system' ? I mean being blunt, there's a lot of white guys in the team too so is for example, Pollard not playing due to some other issue..? I'm really interested as whilst I've grown up with the Boks as the arch enemy I don't like seeing them like this either!



  • The quota system goes well beyond just the Springboks, it impacts all levels below it too. The politics have made a mess of SA rugby.



  • Pollard is out for a year with injury.



  • Shit news for Pollard.

    I hate the quota system, too. However, I think this has more to do with the value of the rand and South Africa's economy. 11 of the current squad play in Europe/Japan now.



  • @Rapido said in Azzuri v Bokke:

    Pollard is out for a year with injury.

    I wondered what had happened to him.



  • Yeah Pollard got injured before Super Rugby started if I remember correctly.

    I really hope this result turns out to be a positive for both sides.

    For the Boks - hopefully this leads to change - what's happening now just is not working to state the obvious. While there are huge issues at play - I think if they put a coach like Ackermann in charge - he would be able to get a whole lot more out of the Boks.

    For the Italians - hopefully this is the start of something. While the Boks are in a bad state right now - for a new coach to pull out this result a week after a really tough first game is impressive. No doubt Venter as part of the coaching group had a big role to play. This should at least give the Italians confidence in what they are doing moving into the Six Nations and give coach O'Shea some 'currency' in relation to where he wants to take the side.



  • The Boks.

    The end result of political correctness.



  • @Frank said in Azzuri v Bokke:

    The Boks.

    The end result of political correctness.

    Well, they are certainly transformed.



  • @Frank said in Azzuri v Bokke:

    The Boks.

    The end result of political correctness.

    fuck yeah frank, bring back apartheid.



  • I think this result wasn't all due to the Boks having a bad game or a bad series of games. IMO the Italians played much better than expected after last weekend. Last week, they already showed they could defend well (for a great part of the game, at least). They did that again today. Different from last week though, was that they attacked more, were more creative and took their chances. Last week, they looked scared and intimidated. This week, not at all. Yes, the Boks' performance going backwards may play a role, but I think the Italians deserve a bit more credit. I hope they can continue to improve and become a more competitive team in 6 Nations.



  • @reprobate
    ha ha - yeah that's why I meant....ffs



  • @reprobate said in Azzuri v Bokke:

    @Frank said in Azzuri v Bokke:

    The Boks.

    The end result of political correctness.

    fuck yeah frank, bring back apartheid.

    ha, ha, yeah that's what I meant....FFS



  • @reprobate said in Azzuri v Bokke:

    @Frank said in Azzuri v Bokke:

    The Boks.

    The end result of political correctness.

    fuck yeah frank, bring back apartheid.

    Got to love TSF. No shades of grey.



  • Haven't seen this match apart from the scoring highlights.

    Japan are actually quite good, innovative and skilful. But Italy? Sheesh, based on last week they offered nothing.

    Normally I'd be happy with an upset against one of the original IRB 8. Not this time.



  • @reprobate said in Azzuri v Bokke:

    @Frank said in Azzuri v Bokke:

    The Boks.

    The end result of political correctness.

    fuck yeah frank, bring back apartheid.

    There's not much I'm with Frank on politically, but farking around with elite sports teams is bloody risky, particularly when your economy is munted and th eplayers can choose to play offshore.

    Neil Wagner and Irene van Dyk agree with me



  • The transformation they so desperately desire shouldn't have been done simultaneously at all levels - how the fuck could that ever work when you'd kept a large slice of the population out of the development pathway?

    Introduce it at junior school levels, then gradually bring that generation through on it. Otherwise you can't expect anything but disaster



  • @reprobate said in Azzuri v Bokke:

    @Frank said in Azzuri v Bokke:

    The Boks.

    The end result of political correctness.

    fuck yeah frank, bring back apartheid.

    What? That's not what he meant at all. Quotas (which is the very definition of PC) have ruined SA rugby. It's a shame.



  • @NTA said in Azzuri v Bokke:

    The transformation they so desperately desire shouldn't have been done simultaneously at all levels - how the fuck could that ever work when you'd kept a large slice of the population out of the development pathway?

    Introduce it at junior school levels, then gradually bring that generation through on it. Otherwise you can't expect anything but disaster

    Because the ANC want rugby ruined, basically.



  • @Kirwan said in Azzuri v Bokke:

    @NTA said in Azzuri v Bokke:

    The transformation they so desperately desire shouldn't have been done simultaneously at all levels - how the fuck could that ever work when you'd kept a large slice of the population out of the development pathway?

    Introduce it at junior school levels, then gradually bring that generation through on it. Otherwise you can't expect anything but disaster

    Because the ANC want rugby ruined, basically.

    I think this might be the crux of the matter, perhaps with a proviso that if not ruination, then run and owned by "our people"



  • it is not PC gone mad to try to re-dress imbalances caused by a totally fucked and disgusting regime which oppressed millions of people. it's fine to argue re the details of implementation, but you can't just say 'everything is equal now' after putting generations of people in a position where it is far more difficult for them to succeed.

    here's the team:
    Springboks: 15-Willie le Roux‚ 14-Ruan Combrinck‚ 13-Francois Venter‚ 12-Damian de Allende‚ 11-Bryan Habana‚ 10-Pat Lambie‚ 9-Rudy Paige‚ 8-Warren Whiteley‚ 7-Willem Alberts‚ 6-Nizaam Carr‚ 5-Lood de Jager‚ 4-Pieter-Steph du Toit‚ 3-Vincent Koch‚ 2-Adriaan Strauss (capt)‚ 1-Tendai Mtawarira.

    they didn't beat italy because PC has gone mad?

    haven't tried adding a picture before so will see if this worksalt text



  • here's the team that lost to japan for good measure. quotas are not the reason this side loses to japan. complacency, shit coaching, shit selection (regardless of race), shit tactics, shit economy forcing players overseas etc etc.

    1. Tendai Mtawarira
    2. Bismarck Du Plessis
    3. Jannie Du Plessis
    4. Lodewyk De Jager
    5. Victor Matfield
    6. Francois Louw
    7. Willem Alberts
    8. Schalk Burger
    9. Ruan Pienaar
    10. Pat Lambie
    11. Lwazi Mvovo
    12. Jean De Villiers (captain)
    13. Jesse Kriel
    14. Bryan Habana
    15. Zane Kirchner


  • i mean seriously, if the boks had to select a quota of japanese or italian players in their team they would probably be in a worse position.



  • Yep - there is a lot to be said for a national side picking a coach who doesn't really inspire (Stormers), and then going on to appoint rookie coaches in other positions.



  • @reprobate I don't think anyone is arguing that the SARU should encourage black people to play the game. However, a lot of them simply just don't want to. The work should be done at the grassroots and the top level should remain as a meritocracy. I think it becomes a problem where if a team is bad for so long they lose their DNA. I think that has happened with the Windies cricket team. If they were going to recover, they would have done so already. I don't think South Africa is anywhere near that state. However, if they keep losing to teams like Italy (when Italy haven't made many discernible improvements) it isn't going to encourage anyone to start playing more rugby.



  • That's one of the stupidest comics I've seen. Talk about over simplifying the issues. Yeah the racist systems that were in place in the past we reprehensible, but retarded ideas like quota systems are a fucking cancerous way of trying to restore equality. All you can do is provide equality of opportunity and the ability for everyone to take responsibility for their own lives. If you take that responsibility away with handouts and quota systems or any other dumb ideas nothing ever improves and you will continue to have a very divided country.



  • SA must have a 50% non white RWC squad in 2019

    Whilst the current teams are not close to that quota level it is already having an impact.
    There are economic reasons why it is difficult for SA to have its best players stay in SR.. but the the coming quota system is making it even more attractive for white players to leave now. The SR teams have been hollowed out.

    I hope I'm wrong, but I think SA is about to have a similar decline to the Welsh in the 80s & 90s



  • alt text



  • South Africa being shit isn't good for us either. The Rugby Championship already is lacking a bit of luster given we have won it in every year it has actually meant something. South Africa being perennially poor is just not going to be a good thing. I hope it doesn't happen.



  • @No-Quarter said in Azzuri v Bokke:

    That's one of the stupidest comics I've seen. Talk about over simplifying the issues. Yeah the racist systems that were in place in the past we reprehensible, but retarded ideas like quota systems are a fucking cancerous way of trying to restore equality. All you can do is provide equality of opportunity and the ability for everyone to take responsibility for their own lives. If you take that responsibility away with handouts and quota systems or any other dumb ideas nothing ever improves and you will continue to have a very divided country.

    yeah, except equality of opportunity directly following oppression is a false premise.
    look at the life outcomes for poor, uneducated white people - your trailer trash or whatever. they have equality of opportunity, but the chances of cletus becoming an astronaut are fuck all.
    so if you force poverty and lack of education on everyone who isn't white for generations, then you are responsible for those outcomes. saying 'yeah she's all good now mate, everyone's even - what's wrong with ya, take some responsibility for your lives.'' is a crock.



  • A generation has grown up since Mandela assumed power. The question that necessarily follows is when do you acknowledge that quotas are no longer necessary? How do you recognise that such policies are no longer required?



  • At the Super rugby level there is equal opportunity for blacks and whites.
    Both have access to the same Super coach, nutrition experts, physios etc.
    How are they disadvantaged at this level in terms of equality of opportunity?



  • @antipodean yep absolutely: implementation details and time-frames are all up for debate and a complex thing. my point is really just that if you have a big fucking mess, then trying to do something to fix it is a good idea.
    also that the boks' losses are not due to quotas, because they're not. the decline in bok rugby has far more to do with them spending the last decade insisting that they keep playing shit 10 man rugby and trying to outmuscle everyone, having shit coaches, picking past-it white guys and having guys leave for money - rather than a very few marginal coloured selections.
    even if you accept the (i think blatantly) false premise that the quotas are the reason, then it is apartheid that has fucked the boks, not PC gone mad.



  • @Frank yes frank - once cletus has become an astronaut, he has equal opportunity with the other astronauts.
    actually he doesn't really, but you get my point.



  • @reprobate
    I don't disagree with extra money/resources being put into the lower levels in terms of coaching and development. And maybe even a quota system at the lower levels.

    But I don't think there should be any quota system beyond Super or Curry Cup level.- i.e for internationals
    Once you reach here, everyone has equality of opportunity.
    Once you reach that, even if it may be on the back of a quota (or not), everyone is equal.
    There should absolutely not be a quota system to select for the Boks. None.



  • @reprobate said in Azzuri v Bokke:

    @No-Quarter said in Azzuri v Bokke:

    That's one of the stupidest comics I've seen. Talk about over simplifying the issues. Yeah the racist systems that were in place in the past we reprehensible, but retarded ideas like quota systems are a fucking cancerous way of trying to restore equality. All you can do is provide equality of opportunity and the ability for everyone to take responsibility for their own lives. If you take that responsibility away with handouts and quota systems or any other dumb ideas nothing ever improves and you will continue to have a very divided country.

    yeah, except equality of opportunity directly following oppression is a false premise.
    look at the life outcomes for poor, uneducated white people - your trailer trash or whatever. they have equality of opportunity, but the chances of cletus becoming an astronaut are fuck all.
    so if you force poverty and lack of education on everyone who isn't white for generations, then you are responsible for those outcomes. saying 'yeah she's all good now mate, everyone's even - what's wrong with ya, take some responsibility for your lives.'' is a crock.

    And how does that relate to a rugby side?

    I'm all for quotas, fast tracking etc. in a post apartheid world when concerning jobs, university positions, schools etc. But again, this is a bloody rugby side and a sport that the vast majority of black South Africans couldn't give a shit about. I don't see how selecting fringe players and inexperienced coaches is helping anyone or growing the game among the black population. You don't learn on the job in international rugby if you're not ready, you get torn apart.

    Another thing is that if a white person misses out on a job to a black person because of quotas he can at least get another job or pursue another career. What do you do if you don't get selected for the Boks because of your skin colour?. Not many options available to you then. Well actually there are. You leave the country.


Log in to reply