-
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="dK" data-cid="598691" data-time="1469146561">
<div>
<p> </p>
<p>Morgan Stanley's view</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.businessinsider.com.au/brexit-economic-consequences-may-never-happen-2016-7'>http://www.businessinsider.com.au/brexit-economic-consequences-may-never-happen-2016-7</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>10 reasons why it would be difficult for Britain to exit;</p>
<ol><li>The Conservative government has a small majority of just 12 seats.</li>
<li>Prime minister Theresa May is pro-Remain.</li>
<li>A majority of MPs are pro-Remain. “Parliament had a clear pro-Remain bias since over 70% of all MPs and over 50% of Conservative MPs supported Remain,†according to Morgan Stanley.</li>
<li>The government faces a general election in 2020, right after the UK — in theory — leaves the EU.</li>
<li>One million UK voters live in EU countries. The vast majority of them will vote against any government that threatens their EU residency status.</li>
<li>Reduced access to the single market will hurt the economy. The mere prospect of it is already triggering a recession in the second half of this year.</li>
<li>Do the Tories really want to go into the 2020 election defending a policy that hurts the economy and increases unemployment?</li>
<li>The EU will <em>not</em> offer the UK a “special deal†featuring full access to the single market but control of UK borders because such a deal would encourage other nations to leave. Nationalist movements, and anti-EU sentiment, are on the rise across Europe.</li>
<li>The EU can withdraw the UK’s bank “passport†that gives UK financial services firms access to the single market. Do the Tories want to go into 2020 defending a policy that decimates The City, which (according to Morgan Stanley) pays 11% of the UK’s entire tax base?</li>
<li><span style="font-weight:700;">Triggering Article 50 is reversible!</span> Not many people know this. But the UK can formally trigger its Article 50 request and then withdraw the request before Brexit actually takes place, if the country wants to.</li>
</ol><p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Be morally reprehensible to not follow through on the referendum. There would be a backlash the likes of which would not have been seen in the UK in centuries... and rightfully so.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>No different to the UK voting to remain and then a majority of MP's vote to leave anyway. Can you imagine the reaction??? The tantrum that would have followed about the death of democracy?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="598722" data-time="1469153674">
<div>
<p>Be morally reprehensible to not follow through on the referendum. There would be a backlash the likes of which would not have been seen in the UK in centuries... and rightfully so.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>No different to the UK voting to remain and then a majority of MP's vote to leave anyway. Can you imagine the reaction??? The tantrum that would have followed about the death of democracy?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>you missed this bit -</p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-weight:700;">"Triggering Article 50 is reversible</span><strong><span style="font-weight:700;">!</span></strong> Not many people know this. But the UK can formally trigger its Article 50 request and then withdraw the request before Brexit actually takes place,<strong><em> if the country wants to."</em></strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p>While no question leave won. It won with a huge number of voters not realising what they were voting for. Over the next couple of years it will dawn on them what they actually voted for. And they may decide they don't want to. And if in 2 years a Brexit plan is put on the table & the majority of the UK don't want it you think it should still go through?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>For example, a huge chunk of the vote was to stop immigrants from the EU. That was retarded as no deal with the EU post brexit has that on the table. But people still belived it was valid because they were stupid & lied to. In the next 2 years it will dawn on those who still haven't got it despite, for example - </p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/21/theresa-may-due-in-paris-to-discuss-britains-eu-exit-plans'>http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/21/theresa-may-due-in-paris-to-discuss-britains-eu-exit-plans</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Pascal Lamey clearly says "no free trade without free movement". Which isn't new. Its what was said pre exit too.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Or add in that Turkey seems unlikley to be joining the EU soon no matter what (again) the stupid or the liars said pre vote. So the vote to close the UK 's borders to the Turks who were just about to join is even stupider.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Democracy only works with informed voters voting for what they actually want given the alternatives (and understanding the alternatives).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So how is it the death if in 2 years voters actually understand whats on offer & get to vote for what they want based on that? The Brexit vote was closer to a betrayal of Democracy, people got told they were voting to kick out the Poles (nope, never on the table), close borders to EU while allowing full export to Europe (nope, never on the table), claw back £350m a week & pay it to the NHS (nope, never on the table) etc etc.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thats literally the death of democracy. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="598849" data-time="1469177529">
<div>
<p>you missed this bit -</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Don't tell me what bits I missed.</p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="598849" data-time="1469177529">
<div>
<p> </p>
<p>While no question leave won. It won with a huge number of voters not realising what they were voting for. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>errrr no. That is just narrative. No polling on that is accurate. It is impossible to be accurate because nobody but the individual knows how they voted. I am willing to bet Brexit voter remorse is just a made up construct of pro remain voters. But we wont ever know that.. because it impossible to do so. Hence my point. But stop claiming as some sort of fact that people didn't know what they were voting for, it is that kind of arrogance form the remain camp that puts people off.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Your whole argument is just a false narrative of hubris. All these people making claims on what will be negotiated just don't know. They are just as guilty of lying as anyone else. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>It is a fucked up democracy when you take an issue of the people, the people vote and then the losers just say 'oh no... you didnt know what you were doing, we are going to ignore you'.</p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
<p> </p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">Democracy only works with informed voters voting for what they actually want given the alternatives (and understanding the alternatives).</span></p>
<p> </p>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>The benchmark you have set for democracy 'working' is just ludicrous Can you name an election that has satisfied that criteria? But I guess that is one way of weaseling out of listening to the people, just invalidate every single election or vote based on an assumption that they don't know what they were voting for. Heck why bother with elections at all aye comrade.</p> -
<p>Some astonishing arrogant comments about the result of this thing. Never should let the plebs vote... unless they vote the way I want them to vote of course.</p>
[/youtube]</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Reminds me of this</p>
<p> </p>
<p>[YouTube] -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="598990" data-time="1469181860">
<div><br><p>errrr no. That is just narrative. No polling on that is accurate. It is impossible to be accurate because nobody but the individual knows how they voted. I am willing to bet Brexit voter remorse is just a made up construct of pro remain voters. But we wont ever know that.. because it impossible to do so. Hence my point. But stop claiming as<strong><em> some sort of fact that people didn't know what they were voting for</em></strong>, it is that kind of arrogance form the remain camp that puts people off.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>People came out post vote & clearly said they voted for the removal of EU migrants & a ban on EU migrants. We had 2 weeks of that on TV & radio talk shows here, every fricking news channel went to Brexit central & wandered about asking people why they voted.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Neither of which is what they will get. And neither of which was actually viable.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And its incredibly easy to guage what they voted for by, in 2 years when the reality of Brexit is honestly on the table, to say "to be clear, this is what Brexit is, do we still want this?" and have a vote on that. And if they vote out, get out.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="599009" data-time="1469184168">
<div>
<p>Some astonishing arrogant comments about the result of this thing. Never should let the plebs vote... unless they vote the way I want them to vote of course.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I don't believe that at all, I do believe that an electoral system where a corrupt elite use any means neccesary to get their agenda across & lie to an uninformed electorate is not a sound basis for democracy. I have zero problem that people voted to leave, I have a problem that people voted leave to stop 1.5m Turks arriving or to up the funding to the NHS by £350m a week.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>People not getting a vote is a recipe for unrest. But so is people voting, believing they are getting something & then not getting it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I also think its weird that the very groups that lose their shit over how PC we have gotten lose their shit when you label a voter who can't be arsed knowing what the deal on offer is stupid. Same in the states. Are Trumps supporters idiots? Hell no. Are the ones who believe he can pass a law banning Muslims stupid? Of course they fucking are. And it is ridiculously PC to scream your tits off in protest when that is done. What's more PC than being not allowed to call someone who is an idiot an idiot?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Half the "solution" to Islam on here is to opening mock it & call it dumb. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="599025" data-time="1469188938"><p>
People came out post vote & clearly said they voted for the removal of EU migrants & a ban on EU migrants. We had 2 weeks of that on TV & radio talk shows here, every fricking news channel went to Brexit central & wandered about asking people why they voted.<br><br>
Neither of which is what they will get. And neither of which was actually viable.<br><br>
And its incredibly easy to guage what they voted for by, in 2 years when the reality of Brexit is honestly on the table, to say "to be clear, this is what Brexit is, do we still want this?" and have a vote on that. And if they vote out, get out.<br><br><br><br>
I don't believe that at all, I do believe that an electoral system where a corrupt elite use any means neccesary to get their agenda across & lie to an uninformed electorate is not a sound basis for democracy. I have zero problem that people voted to leave, I have a problem that people voted leave to stop 1.5m Turks arriving or to up the funding to the NHS by £350m a week.<br><br>
People not getting a vote is a recipe for unrest. But so is people voting, believing they are getting something & then not getting it.<br><br>
I also think its weird that the very groups that lose their shit over how PC we have gotten lose their shit when you label a voter who can't be arsed knowing what the deal on offer is stupid. Same in the states. Are Trumps supporters idiots? Hell no. Are the ones who believe he can pass a law banning Muslims stupid? Of course they fucking are. And it is ridiculously PC to scream your tits off in protest when that is done. What's more PC than being not allowed to call someone who is an idiot an idiot?<br><br>
Half the "solution" to Islam on here is to opening mock it & call it dumb.</p></blockquote>
So it's a fact that the majority of Brexit voters wanted to leave the EU because of the Turks and NHS cash? No other reasons? All just xenophobia and money for health?<br><br>
You talk about scare campaigns? How about the chicken little stuff from the Remain campaign? Destroying the future of the young (who were so concerned most of them didn't even bother to vote). <br><br>
The fact is both sides spun bullshit to sell their message. To say that the Brexit people were fooled and made an uninformed decision is way too simplistic. <br><br>
As for that PC stuff, wtf? If people are genuinely stupid then fine, but it seems to me they're being labelled stupid because they had the unmitigated gall to vote leave. Unless you can prove that what, 15 million people, voted leave because they're ignorant idiots that didn't know the facts then basically all you're doing is saying they're idiots because they didn't vote the way YOU wanted them to vote. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="599028" data-time="1469189950">
<div>
<p>So it's a fact that the majority of Brexit voters wanted to leave the EU because of the Turks and NHS cash? No other reasons? All just xenophobia and money for health?<br><br>
You talk about scare campaigns? How about the chicken little stuff from the Remain campaign? Destroying the future of the young (who were so concerned most of them didn't even bother to vote).<br><br>
The fact is both sides spun bullshit to sell their message. To say that the Brexit people were fooled and made an uninformed decision is way too simplistic.<br><br>
As for that PC stuff, wtf?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Well, one at a time.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><em>So it's a fact that the majority of Brexit voters wanted to leave the EU because of the Turks and NHS cash? No other reasons? All just xenophobia and money for health?</em></p>
<p> </p>
<p>To quote BSG, "I never said that".</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It doesn't have to be "the majority". In the interviews done after the vote a lot of voters cited those & far more cited stopping EU immigrants. That was very much a key driver of the vote yes. So if 20% of Brexit voters thought they were getting closed border & 350m to the NHS that swings the vote.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><em>You talk about scare campaigns? How about the chicken little stuff from the Remain campaign? Destroying the future of the young (who were so concerned most of them didn't even bother to vote).</em></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Actually the youth vote was WAY above the average for UK elections. And literally everything remain said immediately happened, slowdown in economy, reduced forecasts, spending cut, imports more expensive etc. Which "scare" tactic from Stay made people vote Stay & was actually bullshit?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><em>The fact is both sides spun bullshit to sell their message. To say that the Brexit people were fooled and made an uninformed decision is way too simplistic.</em></p>
<p> </p>
<p>How? A big chunk of exit voted for a tickbox of things that weren't on offer.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><em>As for that PC stuff, wtf?</em></p>
<p> </p>
<p>You LITERALLY just posted a thing about its wrong to call people voting one way stupid.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And I 100% agree, but its PC bullshit to say you can't call uniformed people saying dumb stuff stupid. If someone says "I am voting Trump / Brexit" I have no right to imply they are idiots. If someone says "I am voting Trump as he'll ban Muslims & build a border wall that Mexico pays for" they blatently ARE stupid. And the PC bullshit about "everyone is entitled to their opinion!!" is the same shit we hear re Anti Vax groups or any other moron. Everyone IS entitled to their opinion but Trump will build a wall or Vaxines give you Autism or a Brexit exit adds £350m to the NHS are not opinions, they are easilly verifiable things that are either true or false.</p> -
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://twitter.com/faisalislam?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author'>https://twitter.com/faisalislam?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>And this morning as reported by sky, Faisel explains the PMI data incredibly clearly. Contrast the "Stay" groups "scare mongering" & the reality (EG as in the PMI indicators). And the "scare mongering" of Brexit with "£350m for the NHS!", "1.5m Turks!" </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="599030" data-time="1469191145">
<div>
<p>Well, one at a time.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><em>So it's a fact that the majority of Brexit voters wanted to leave the EU because of the Turks and NHS cash? No other reasons? All just xenophobia and money for health?</em></p>
<p> </p>
<p>To quote BSG, "I never said that".</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It doesn't have to be "the majority". In the interviews done after the vote a lot of voters cited those & far more cited stopping EU immigrants. That was very much a key driver of the vote yes. So if 20% of Brexit voters thought they were getting closed border & 350m to the NHS that swings the vote.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><em>You talk about scare campaigns? How about the chicken little stuff from the Remain campaign? Destroying the future of the young (who were so concerned most of them didn't even bother to vote).</em></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Actually the youth vote was WAY above the average for UK elections. And literally everything remain said immediately happened, slowdown in economy, reduced forecasts, spending cut, imports more expensive etc. Which "scare" tactic from Stay made people vote Stay & was actually bullshit?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><em>The fact is both sides spun bullshit to sell their message. To say that the Brexit people were fooled and made an uninformed decision is way too simplistic.</em></p>
<p> </p>
<p>How? A big chunk of exit voted for a tickbox of things that weren't on offer.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><em>As for that PC stuff, wtf?</em></p>
<p> </p>
<p>You LITERALLY just posted a thing about its wrong to call people voting one way stupid.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And I 100% agree, but its PC bullshit to say you can't call uniformed people saying dumb stuff stupid. If someone says "I am voting Trump / Brexit" I have no right to imply they are idiots. If someone says "I am voting Trump as he'll ban Muslims & build a border wall that Mexico pays for" they blatently ARE stupid. And the PC bullshit about "everyone is entitled to their opinion!!" is the same shit we hear re Anti Vax groups or any other moron. Everyone IS entitled to their opinion but Trump will build a wall or Vaxines give you Autism or a Brexit exit adds £350m to the NHS are not opinions, they are easilly verifiable things that are either true or false.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>This does not read like the rantings of a mad man</p> -
So you're positive that 20% voted because of Turks and NHS? Is that a fact or just your opinion? Norway voted no to the EU twice. Is that because of stupid or badly informed voters or because people had genuine concerns about joining the EU?<br><br>
Perhaps it's best to wait a bit and find out exactly what form Brexit will take before passing judgement? Not to mention the long-term ramifications for the UK economy.<br><br>
As for the PC thing, you clearly didn't even read what I wrote. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="599033" data-time="1469192016">
<div>
<p><em>So you're positive that 20% voted because of Turks and NHS? </em>Is that a fact or just your opinion? Norway voted no to the EU twice. Is that because of stupid or badly informed voters or because people had genuine concerns about joining the EU?<br><br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>No, not all. But I am positive that a lot of people voted for something that cannot be delivered & were lied to. And thats not a good basis for stable democracy. It is going to dawn on those people in the next 2 years that the Poles aren't leaving, in fact they are still coming. That the NHS ain't getting that cash (to be fair that dawned on them the day after) etc.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I honestly can't comment on Norway as I don't know what was on offer, nor have I had 2 weeks of telly of people saying why they voted in Norway.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="599034" data-time="1469192457"><p>
No, not all. But I am positive that a lot of people voted for something that cannot be delivered & were lied to. And thats not a good basis for stable democracy. It is going to dawn on those people in the next 2 years that the Poles aren't leaving, in fact they are still coming. That the NHS ain't getting that cash (to be fair that dawned on them the day after) etc.<br><br>
I honestly can't comment on Norway as I don't know what was on offer, nor have I had 2 weeks of telly of people saying why they voted in Norway.</p></blockquote>
<br>
Well if you saw it on the telly... -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="599036" data-time="1469193860">
<div>
<p>Well if you saw it on the telly...</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Really? Now you are saying if the new reports on the TV (ALL the news reports) say something its probably wrong? Isn't that Wingers stance? I get you are just trying to toss in a snide throwaway, but thats pretty tinfoil hat.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Especially as you've dodged actual valid points like the PMI indicators & what scare mongering Remain did that compares to Brexit...</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="599033" data-time="1469192016">
<div>
<p>So you're positive that 20% voted because of Turks and NHS? Is that a fact or just your opinion? Norway voted no to the EU twice. Is that because of stupid or badly informed voters or because people had genuine concerns about joining the EU?<br><br>
Perhaps it's best to wait a bit and find out exactly what form Brexit will take before passing judgement? Not to mention the long-term ramifications for the UK economy.<br><br>
As for the PC thing, you clearly didn't even read what I wrote.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>FFS Rancid, jumping on the 20% thing is a bit of a poor argument. Smeagol, sorry Gollum did say as an example, "so if 20%..."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As for the Norway argument I never quite see the rationale for pointing out how the EU does or does not affect another country. It is nowhere near the same, plus for every example you can think of that paints EU membership in a good/bad light, you can easily cite any number of others that paint it in a bad/good light. It's just not relevant.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>There is plenty that is wrong with our membership of the EU and plenty that is just plain wrong with the EU itself, whether or not we will be better off out or not, I just don't know. Nor do I yet know whether we will actually leave. All I can be sure of is that this whole referendum thing has been incredibly divisive, ill planned and has been campaigned in an absolutely bloody awful manner.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I can say for sure that we are not in a better position for having the referendum and that it has not improved many people's views on our politicians veracity.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="598722" data-time="1469153674">
<div>
<p>Be morally reprehensible to not follow through on the referendum. There would be a backlash the likes of which would not have been seen in the UK in centuries... and rightfully so.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>No different to the UK voting to remain and then a majority of MP's vote to leave anyway. Can you imagine the reaction??? The tantrum that would have followed about the death of democracy?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>You're spot on here Baron. The referendum is the genie that you cannot put back in the bottle. To me it just beggars belief that Cameron ever thought it would be a good idea for him.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="599034" data-time="1469192457">
<div>
<p>No, not all. But I am positive that a lot of people voted for something that cannot be delivered & were lied to. And thats not a good basis for stable democracy. It is going to dawn on those people in the next 2 years that the Poles aren't leaving, in fact they are still coming. That the NHS ain't getting that cash (to be fair that dawned on them the day after) etc.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I honestly can't comment on Norway as I don't know what was on offer, nor have I had 2 weeks of telly of people saying why they voted in Norway.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Great. That is your opinion. Lots of the remain camp have the same opinion. But the thing they dont realise is that they only speak for themselves, they dont get to tell others what they voted for and what motivated them. All these claims of why people voted are just made up nonsense from the arrogant.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Nobody yet knows how the negotiations will pan out, Catogrande is correct, comparing to other countries is just a waste of time. This situation is unchartered waters. In fact the scaremongering about this is in my opinion the worst lie in the whole debate.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="599038" data-time="1469194082">
<div>
<p>Really? Now you are saying if the new reports on the TV (ALL the news reports) say something its probably wrong? Isn't that Wingers stance? I get you are just trying to toss in a snide throwaway, but thats pretty tinfoil hat.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Especially as you've dodged actual valid points like the PMI indicators & what scare mongering Remain did that compares to Brexit...</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Yes invoke Winger, that certainly makes you the bigger man.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>My point is that saying you saw stuff on the telly doesn't prove your assertion that leave won because their voters were stupid and uninformed. 16.8 million people voted leave. When you get a number that high saying that Turks and NHS money were the decisive factors is more than a little simplistic. You're also talking as if you know exactly what form Brexit will take. So how can you say people were fooled or didn't get what they want when nothing has even been decided yet?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And I haven't dodged anything. I said perhaps it would be sensible to wait and see how this thing pans out before making judgements. Call that Winger-like if you want. I call it common fucking sense.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="599042" data-time="1469201898">
<div>
<p>FFS Rancid, jumping on the 20% thing is a bit of a poor argument. Smeagol, sorry Gollum did say as an example, "so if 20%..."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As for the Norway argument I never quite see the rationale for pointing out how the EU does or does not affect another country. It is nowhere near the same, plus for every example you can think of that paints EU membership in a good/bad light, you can easily cite any number of others that paint it in a bad/good light. It's just not relevant.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>There is plenty that is wrong with our membership of the EU and plenty that is just plain wrong with the EU itself, whether or not we will be better off out or not, I just don't know. Nor do I yet know whether we will actually leave. All I can be sure of is that this whole referendum thing has been incredibly divisive, ill planned and has been campaigned in an absolutely bloody awful manner.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I can say for sure that we are not in a better position for having the referendum and that it has not improved many people's views on our politicians veracity.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>FFS Cato, he's pretty adamant that those were the decisive factors that put leave over the top. I'm simply asking him to prove it beyond vague references to having watched it on the telly.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I mentioned Norway because it shows that people do not just vote against the EU based on xenophobia and stupidity or because the dumb plebs are just uninformed.</p> -
<p>there is a major and valid general issue here though: politicians should be held to some sort of standard in terms of the truth of their advertising.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>if they can say whatever the fuck they want, there is no democracy because people are not getting what they voted for.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>trump's wall to keep out mexicans paid for by mexicans comes to mind.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>the EU vote is a funny situation too, because the people who 'won' are not the people who get to implement anything at all. in fact the person who resigned because he didn't want to leave has been replaced with someone who also did not want to leave.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>it's a bit of a farce really that 'leave' could campaign on absolutely anything at all, but have no accountability or even ability to deliver anything; any promises they made were necessarily false.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="599077" data-time="1469229373">
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<p>there is a major and valid general issue here though: politicians should be held to some sort of standard in terms of the truth of their advertising.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>if they can say whatever the fuck they want, there is no democracy because people are not getting what they voted for.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>trump's wall to keep out mexicans paid for by mexicans comes to mind.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>the EU vote is a funny situation too, because the people who 'won' are not the people who get to implement anything at all. in fact the person who resigned because he didn't want to leave has been replaced with someone who also did not want to leave.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>it's a bit of a farce really that 'leave' could campaign on absolutely anything at all, but have no accountability or even ability to deliver anything; any promises they made were necessarily false.</p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>That is a heck of a lot of opinion masquerading as fact.</p>
<p>Voters have always understood that politicians make promises to try and do things. Look at the promises Obama made.... he made a good attempts at some.. but was blocked. Shit happens like that and voters understand, they want the people they vote into fight for what they have promised. The remain camp 'lied' about numerous things as well.I would say far more seriously and demonstrably than the leave campaign.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The vote was not a farce.. The people spoke and the politicians now have the job to implement it.</p>
Brexit