Beaver's all time NZ Super sides
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@Chris said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@MN5 said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Canes4life said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@MN5 said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Canes4life said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@MN5 said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Canes4life said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Shekou-man said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
Hang on a minute how many titles have the Canes won with the backlines that tear us a new one every time they faced us?
Our backline would have torn you to shreds in the one final that we played you in, however you decided to make it impossible for anyone to know where the bloody ball was.
Most of the titles the Crusaders have won are due to your boring brand, scrum and set piece dominance in freezing conditions. No one wants to watch that rubbish.
If these sides faced each other on a dry track, the Crusaders are getting ripped apart. Those Blues and Canes backlines are far superior to anything the Crusaders could put out. Let's be honest.
The only individual who is better than any Cane/Blue in history would be DC ( admittedly in a key position )
The rest fall well short man for man.
Will Carter even make the Crusaders top side based on Richie Mo's results? You could pop him at 12 maybe? That's probably the most heavily debated position out of any side.
Had a sip of my coffee and had a rethink. Marshall was maligned a bit as a player ( and even more so as a commentator ) but he matches up comparatively to Weepu and Tonu'u.
Yep, Marshall and Carter definitely stack up but the rest of the backline not so much. You could probably argue Will Jordan but then again Mils had a great career, and Cully, well he's the GOAT in that position.
Unfortunately for the Saders, arguably three of their most influential backs all played 10 in Mehrtens, Carter and Mo'unga and you can only pick 1.
Back three would be a choice of MacDonald, Dagg and Jordan at FB. I'd imagine Ralph and Reece on the wings ( or maybe they shoehorn one of the FBs, whichever way they go they fall short compared to the Blues/Canes ). Midfield is Aaron Mauger and probably Goodhue ?
Actually aside from the wings they compare ok.......
Marika Vunibaka,Rico Gear,Nemani Nadolo, and Sony Bill Williams in the MF would all be in contention.
The Crusaders version of SBW wasn't peak SBW, it wasn't until he came to the Chiefs that happened. In all honesty, despite his turnstile defence Mauger is probably the standout 12 for the Crusaders, although if you want to get both DC and the franchise rugby specialist in the same team then DC might be a selection at 12. Bateman was also a good 12 for the Crusaders.
Nadaloo would go close to an all time team, he almost singlehandley kept the Crusaders in touch for much of the Blackadder era. But hard to go past the try scoring of Reece at franchise level.
I don't think Jordan should be in the frame at fullback, Rangi and Israel have far better CVs than him as a 15.
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@Canes4life said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@MN5 said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Canes4life said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@MN5 said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Canes4life said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Shekou-man said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
Hang on a minute how many titles have the Canes won with the backlines that tear us a new one every time they faced us?
Our backline would have torn you to shreds in the one final that we played you in, however you decided to make it impossible for anyone to know where the bloody ball was.
Most of the titles the Crusaders have won are due to your boring brand, scrum and set piece dominance in freezing conditions. No one wants to watch that rubbish.
If these sides faced each other on a dry track, the Crusaders are getting ripped apart. Those Blues and Canes backlines are far superior to anything the Crusaders could put out. Let's be honest.
The only individual who is better than any Cane/Blue in history would be DC ( admittedly in a key position )
The rest fall well short man for man.
Will Carter even make the Crusaders top side based on Richie Mo's results? You could pop him at 12 maybe? That's probably the most heavily debated position out of any side.
Had a sip of my coffee and had a rethink. Marshall was maligned a bit as a player ( and even more so as a commentator ) but he matches up comparatively to Weepu and Tonu'u.
Yep, Marshall and Carter definitely stack up but the rest of the backline not so much. You could probably argue Will Jordan but then again Mils had a great career, and Cully, well he's the GOAT in that position.
Unfortunately for the Saders, arguably three of their most influential backs all played 10 in Mehrtens, Carter and Mo'unga and you can only pick 1.
Disagree. You can easily pick all three. Merhts at 10, Carter where he started at 12, and Mo'unga at 15, where he hides most of the time anyway.
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@antipodean said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Canes4life said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@MN5 said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Canes4life said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@MN5 said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Canes4life said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Shekou-man said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
Hang on a minute how many titles have the Canes won with the backlines that tear us a new one every time they faced us?
Our backline would have torn you to shreds in the one final that we played you in, however you decided to make it impossible for anyone to know where the bloody ball was.
Most of the titles the Crusaders have won are due to your boring brand, scrum and set piece dominance in freezing conditions. No one wants to watch that rubbish.
If these sides faced each other on a dry track, the Crusaders are getting ripped apart. Those Blues and Canes backlines are far superior to anything the Crusaders could put out. Let's be honest.
The only individual who is better than any Cane/Blue in history would be DC ( admittedly in a key position )
The rest fall well short man for man.
Will Carter even make the Crusaders top side based on Richie Mo's results? You could pop him at 12 maybe? That's probably the most heavily debated position out of any side.
Had a sip of my coffee and had a rethink. Marshall was maligned a bit as a player ( and even more so as a commentator ) but he matches up comparatively to Weepu and Tonu'u.
Yep, Marshall and Carter definitely stack up but the rest of the backline not so much. You could probably argue Will Jordan but then again Mils had a great career, and Cully, well he's the GOAT in that position.
Unfortunately for the Saders, arguably three of their most influential backs all played 10 in Mehrtens, Carter and Mo'unga and you can only pick 1.
Disagree. You can easily pick all three. Merhts at 10, Carter where he started at 12, and Mo'unga at 15, where he hides most of the time anyway.
Merhts at 12 with his tissue paper defence would be fun for whoever was running at him.
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@MN5 said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@antipodean said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Canes4life said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@MN5 said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Canes4life said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@MN5 said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Canes4life said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Shekou-man said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
Hang on a minute how many titles have the Canes won with the backlines that tear us a new one every time they faced us?
Our backline would have torn you to shreds in the one final that we played you in, however you decided to make it impossible for anyone to know where the bloody ball was.
Most of the titles the Crusaders have won are due to your boring brand, scrum and set piece dominance in freezing conditions. No one wants to watch that rubbish.
If these sides faced each other on a dry track, the Crusaders are getting ripped apart. Those Blues and Canes backlines are far superior to anything the Crusaders could put out. Let's be honest.
The only individual who is better than any Cane/Blue in history would be DC ( admittedly in a key position )
The rest fall well short man for man.
Will Carter even make the Crusaders top side based on Richie Mo's results? You could pop him at 12 maybe? That's probably the most heavily debated position out of any side.
Had a sip of my coffee and had a rethink. Marshall was maligned a bit as a player ( and even more so as a commentator ) but he matches up comparatively to Weepu and Tonu'u.
Yep, Marshall and Carter definitely stack up but the rest of the backline not so much. You could probably argue Will Jordan but then again Mils had a great career, and Cully, well he's the GOAT in that position.
Unfortunately for the Saders, arguably three of their most influential backs all played 10 in Mehrtens, Carter and Mo'unga and you can only pick 1.
Disagree. You can easily pick all three. Merhts at 10, Carter where he started at 12, and Mo'unga at 15, where he hides most of the time anyway.
Merhts at 12 with his tissue paper defence would be fun for whoever was running at him.
Nonu vs Merhts playing 12, bring it on.
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@Shekou-man said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Canes4life said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@ACT-Crusader said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
And you can see why he’s leaving the Saders (best) to last. Far too difficult to just pick 15. Crusaders 3rd XV would beat these other squads.. .
Mate you’re dreaming, those Blues and Canes backlines would tear the Crusaders a new one.
Thats why those two teams have more trophy's than us.
This is a silly line to take as we're discussing best players across a time period in one team (and yes I know you're responding to hyperbole). For example, the Blues get to have Kaino, Jones and Brooke in one team. The Canes get a cracking 10 which for most of their existence they've usually had average ones. The Canes get to have Nonu, Smith, Umaga, Jonah, and Cully in the same team.
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@Nepia said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Shekou-man said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Canes4life said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@ACT-Crusader said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
And you can see why he’s leaving the Saders (best) to last. Far too difficult to just pick 15. Crusaders 3rd XV would beat these other squads.. .
Mate you’re dreaming, those Blues and Canes backlines would tear the Crusaders a new one.
Thats why those two teams have more trophy's than us.
This is a silly line to take as we're discussing best players across a time period in one team (and yes I know you're responding to hyperbole). For example, the Blues get to have Kaino, Jones and Brooke in one team. The Canes get a cracking 10 which for most of their existence they've usually had average ones. The Canes get to have Nonu, Smith, Umaga, Jonah, and Cully in the same team.
Blowers got selected in the team and was obviously a huge factor in them winning inaugural back to back titles but when you think of what they achieved at international level Kaino was the far better player.
Blowers to me always underachieved in the Black Jersey when he had the athleticism and talent to be a 100 cap legend.
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@MN5 said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Nepia said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Shekou-man said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Canes4life said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@ACT-Crusader said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
And you can see why he’s leaving the Saders (best) to last. Far too difficult to just pick 15. Crusaders 3rd XV would beat these other squads.. .
Mate you’re dreaming, those Blues and Canes backlines would tear the Crusaders a new one.
Thats why those two teams have more trophy's than us.
This is a silly line to take as we're discussing best players across a time period in one team (and yes I know you're responding to hyperbole). For example, the Blues get to have Kaino, Jones and Brooke in one team. The Canes get a cracking 10 which for most of their existence they've usually had average ones. The Canes get to have Nonu, Smith, Umaga, Jonah, and Cully in the same team.
Blowers got selected in the team and was obviously a huge factor in them winning inaugural back to back titles but when you think of what they achieved at international level Kaino was the far better player.
Blowers to me always underachieved in the Black Jersey when he had the athleticism and talent to be a 100 cap legend.
Yeah he looked like he was destined for superstardom, a quick Google shows he only played 11 tests, I didn't realise he played so few.
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@Nepia said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@MN5 said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Nepia said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Shekou-man said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Canes4life said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@ACT-Crusader said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
And you can see why he’s leaving the Saders (best) to last. Far too difficult to just pick 15. Crusaders 3rd XV would beat these other squads.. .
Mate you’re dreaming, those Blues and Canes backlines would tear the Crusaders a new one.
Thats why those two teams have more trophy's than us.
This is a silly line to take as we're discussing best players across a time period in one team (and yes I know you're responding to hyperbole). For example, the Blues get to have Kaino, Jones and Brooke in one team. The Canes get a cracking 10 which for most of their existence they've usually had average ones. The Canes get to have Nonu, Smith, Umaga, Jonah, and Cully in the same team.
Blowers got selected in the team and was obviously a huge factor in them winning inaugural back to back titles but when you think of what they achieved at international level Kaino was the far better player.
Blowers to me always underachieved in the Black Jersey when he had the athleticism and talent to be a 100 cap legend.
Yeah he looked like he was destined for superstardom, a quick Google shows he only played 11 tests, I didn't realise he played so few.
As an athlete he wasn’t too far off Jonah level, certainly moved better than Thorne, Randell etc.
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@nostrildamus said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@ACT-Crusader said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
And you can see why he’s leaving the Saders (best) to last. Far too difficult to just pick 15. Crusaders 3rd XV would beat these other squads.. .
None of your teams had a Rupeni.
Pfft, he can’t even sort out a passport….
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Merts is difficult to leave out because he played such a big role in the victories of 98-2000 where they were a more limited team without many other stars and his kicking was a big part of getting them over the line. Mauger actually started finals at 10-13-12 in a three year span. He worked very well with Laulala when they were paired. But the 10-12 combo of Merts/Mauger seems too small in terms of defense, even though they had an unbeaten season in 2002 with those two.
The thing often forgotten about Carter was how strong an open field tackler he was, especially at the fullback position a 10 often ends up at, or even in his case in the 2004 NPC season/final when he was playing fullback due to Cantys logjam. Had he chosen to solely play second five or fullback in either position he could have been equally dominant vs the other options.
Jordan would have to go on the wing to make best use of the Crusaders talent as fullback is a stronger position. Gear had a couple of big years, Reece has the tries but Nadolo had a higher peak.
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@Nepia said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
For example, the Blues get to have Kaino, Jones and Brooke in one team
It's that question of best players overall vs best players for the team. The selection policy changes the team a lot. For instance I think Akira should be in the Blues all time team
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Just looking at Jones career for the Blues. I was curious how often he played each position because I remember him moving from 7 > 6 > 8
7 - 11 starts mostly in 96
6 - 11 starts
8 - 14 startsI think this is accurate. Surprisingly even mix. I was expecting less games at 7
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Not sure if this is 100% but should be close-
Top 10 seasons by Points Scored Per Game 1996-2024
2002 Crusaders 42.6
2005 Crusaders 41.7
2017 Hurricanes 39.7
1997 Blues 39.5
2017 Lions 39.3
1997 Hurricanes 37.8
1996 Blues 37.1
2004 Brumbies 37.1
1997 Brumbies 36.9
2017 Crusaders 36.3It does lend a bit of support to a guy like Mauger at 12 when he played a key role in the two highest scoring teams. Merts was the 10 in 2002, Carter in 2005.
Looking back through the finals teams I'd forgotten the odd fact in the 2006 fog final the Crusaders back reserves were Cameron McIntyre, Stephen Brett and Caleb Ralph, with Robbie Deans saying in the lead up that Carter would play halfback if Kevin Senio had to go off.
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@HugeCarrot2 Looks like defense was pretty poor in 2017! Or was everyone just putting 60+ on the rebels and sunwolves
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@DurryMexted said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@HugeCarrot2 Looks like defense was pretty poor in 2017! Or was everyone just putting 60+ on the rebels and sunwolves
The first two games of that season, the Canes put 80+ on the Sunwolves in their first game, and then 70+ on the Rebels in their second game from memory.
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Yeah it's hard to compare some years with different rules or talent spread too thinly when they expanded and teams were getting hammered. I excluded playoff matches given those would on average be vs better defenses.
None of the Bulls teams from their 2007-2010 run made it either. One unusual one was the 2009 Crusaders sneaking into the playoffs with just 17.8 points per game/231 total, 2nd lowest that season only 18 more than wooden spooners the Cheetahs. The Waratahs in 5th also only scored 241 and lost out to Crusaders on points differential by 4.
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@Duluth said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@Nepia said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
For example, the Blues get to have Kaino, Jones and Brooke in one team
It's that question of best players overall vs best players for the team. The selection policy changes the team a lot. For instance I think Akira should be in the Blues all time team
Charlie Faumuina would be in mine too.
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@African-Monkey Blowers and Papalii put in many great games at 7 too.
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1 Woodcock
2 Fitzpatrick
3 Faumuina
4 Brooke
5 Tuipulotu
6 Ioane
7 Blowers
8 Brooke
9 Tonu'u
10 Spencer
11 Lomu
12 Stensness
13 Ioane
14 Howlett
15 Cashmore16 Mealamu
17 Tu'ungufasi
18 Brown
19 Williams
20 Jones
21 Gibson
22 Plummer
23 CaucaunibucaHalfback has been our worst position by far.
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@Tim said in Beaver's all time NZ Super sides:
@African-Monkey Blowers and Papalii put in many great games at 7 too.
Definitely. Some guys that gave a lot more to the Blues in worse teams are just being overlooked by big names who were just transitioning over from the amateur era to the start of professional era.
