AS v TJP
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@Stargazer and if the perverts weren't such utter creeps, there wouldn't have been any publicity.
Who does that??
I know stacks of people that have got amongst it in public places but I don't know of anyone that has filed it wothout them knowing.
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As I was concerned about at the time, the impact on Smith's form has been dramatic, and it's completely the pervert couple's fault.
Yes. Worst case he's a terrible boyfriend, very insensitive towards people needing to use the disabled toilet. His punishment for that has been complete humiliation, crying on national tv, leading the national news for months and even appearing on international news websites (I've had people ask me about it all the way on the other side of the world- on USA's East Coast, hardly rugby country)... not to mention ruining his international season. His partner has also been humiliated publicly. Completely disproportionate, and I blame that attention seeking, self righteous couple too.
EDIT: Stupid to do so while wearing the All Blacks kit, but still very disproportionate.
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@Stargazer said in AS v TJP:
@Kirwan I don't care about him having sex (although I do object to the cheating, but I agree that's a private matter). He was just incredibly stupid to have it in a disabled toilet at an airport, wearing his AB costume. If he hadn't been so stupid, there wouldn't have been any publicity.
We almost agree, it's just that I don't think ANY of it is our business. It's certainly not worth being reported on in the media (it's not a story) and no matter where he was or what he was wearing, that couple had no right to record a private act.
It's interesting they don't want their names out there isn't it? It's almost like they want their privacy respected. Bloody hypocrites.
Yes, but the reality is - rightly or wrongly - that All Blacks and other public figures are under more public scrutiny than average Joe or Jane. It comes with all the privileges they have. Every All Black knows that. Smith forgot or chose to ignore that. Again, he was stupid and without his stupidity, there wouldn't have been a story. Average Joe or Jane wouldn't have been headlines in the paper or on tv, even if those perverts had recorded it and had gone to the media.
I feel sorry for Smith's partner and family, but he's an idiot (also because it wasn't the first time, he should have learned).
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@Stargazer said in AS v TJP:
@Stargazer said in AS v TJP:
@Kirwan I don't care about him having sex (although I do object to the cheating, but I agree that's a private matter). He was just incredibly stupid to have it in a disabled toilet at an airport, wearing his AB costume. If he hadn't been so stupid, there wouldn't have been any publicity.
We almost agree, it's just that I don't think ANY of it is our business. It's certainly not worth being reported on in the media (it's not a story) and no matter where he was or what he was wearing, that couple had no right to record a private act.
It's interesting they don't want their names out there isn't it? It's almost like they want their privacy respected. Bloody hypocrites.
Yes, but the reality is - rightly or wrongly - that All Blacks and other public figures are under more public scrutiny than average Joe or Jane. It comes with all the privileges they have. Every All Black knows that. Smith forgot or chose to ignore that. Again, he was stupid and without his stupidity, there wouldn't have been a story. Average Joe or Jane wouldn't have been headlines in the paper or on tv, even if those perverts had recorded it and had gone to the media.
I feel sorry for Smith's partner and family, but he's an idiot (also because it wasn't the first time, he should have learned).
So your position is All Blacks can be recorded having sex because they are famous? Wow.
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@Kirwan Are you mis-reading my posts on purpose? I'll quote my own (previous) post:
@Stargazer said in AS v TJP:
@Kirwan I don't agree with the couple going with this story to the media, but if Smith hadn't been an idiot, they wouldn't have had anything to go to the media with. In the end, he is responsible for his own mess, not that couple.
Or, to be even more clear, I'll extensively frame it in the law of cause and effect:
Primary (first in time) cause: Smith (a public person dressed in official team outfit) goes into a disabled toilet at a public airport to have sex (the cheating is irrelevant)
Primary effect: Someone, at least the couple waiting near the disabled toilet, noticed.Secondary cause: The couple who noticed (the perverts), recorded Smith & the woman having sex in a disabled toilet at a public airport and take the story to the media.
Secondary effect: The media find out about Smith & the woman having sex in a disabled toilet at a public airport.Tertiary cause: The media decide to publish the story (with big headlines) about Smith & the woman having sex in a disabled toilet at a public airport. (The fact that he was a public figure in team outfit will certainly have played a big role; average Joe and Jane doing the same thing would either not have been published at all, or would have been a small story in the margin.)
Tertiary effect: Everyone who reads/hears the story in the media finds out about Smith & the woman having sex in a disabled toilet at a public airport, including his partner and family, and Smith is in deep shit.etc etc
Smith's problems are the consequences of a series of causes. You chose to focus on the secondary cause, but the fact is, that without the primary cause there wouldn't have been a secondary cause. You will have your reasons for that focus; maybe because you don't like it that All Blacks/public figures are under more scrutiny than average people, or maybe because you hate perverts, or maybe for other reasons. Some other people have chosen to focus on the third cause, by criticising the media because they hate tabloid type stories (especially because some media also published the name and photos of his partner and his previous partner).
The fact remains, however, that the secondary or third cause are dependent on the existence of the primary cause.
By saying that, I have not expressed any judgment. This reasoning is not subjective, but pure logic. So, no, my position is not that All Blacks can be recorded having sex because they are famous. I'm saying that All Blacks, politicians, celebrities etc are more likely to get noticed doing whatever they are doing because they are public figures. And whatever they are doing is more likely to be published as a "story" by the media (even if it isn't really a front cover story; we're not talking about quality journalism here). For that reason, they should be more aware of what they are doing, where they are doing it and even with whom, and think of the possible consequences of their actions and what responses they can trigger. There, again, no moral judgment from me.
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@Stargazer said in AS v TJP:
@Stargazer said in AS v TJP:
@Kirwan I don't care about him having sex (although I do object to the cheating, but I agree that's a private matter). He was just incredibly stupid to have it in a disabled toilet at an airport, wearing his AB costume. If he hadn't been so stupid, there wouldn't have been any publicity.
We almost agree, it's just that I don't think ANY of it is our business. It's certainly not worth being reported on in the media (it's not a story) and no matter where he was or what he was wearing, that couple had no right to record a private act.
It's interesting they don't want their names out there isn't it? It's almost like they want their privacy respected. Bloody hypocrites.
Yes, but the reality is - rightly or wrongly - that All Blacks and other public figures are under more public scrutiny than average Joe or Jane. It comes with all the privileges they have. Every All Black knows that. Smith forgot or chose to ignore that. Again, he was stupid and without his stupidity, there wouldn't have been a story. Average Joe or Jane wouldn't have been headlines in the paper or on tv, even if those perverts had recorded it and had gone to the media.
I feel sorry for Smith's partner and family, but he's an idiot (also because it wasn't the first time, he should have learned).
So your position is All Blacks can be recorded having sex because they are famous? Wow.
You had me to here @Kirwan
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@Stargazer just to clarify something, ChCh Airport is not a public place. It is a privately owned building and people agree to certain 'rules' on entry. One of those rules is the unauthorised use of filming equipment.
I know that is irrelevant to your point, but worth clarifying.
On your point, it is obvious that the subsequent publicity could not have happened with the initial action, however AS was, at the time, entitled to the same levels of privacy as anyone else. He committed no offence other than being recognisable. The scrotes that went to the media with this should have respected his privacy.
Lets change the action a bit, let's say he was overheard at the airport having an argument with his partner. Then the people that overheard it recognised him, recorded it on their cellphone and went to the papers who published it for tittilation. Is he at fault? I see no difference whatsoever.
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@Stargazer just to clarify something, ChCh Airport is not a public place. It is a privately owned building and people agree to certain 'rules' on entry. One of those rules is the unauthorised use of filming equipment.
I know that is irrelevant to your point, but worth clarifying.
On your point, it is obvious that the subsequent publicity could not have happened with the initial action, however AS was, at the time, entitled to the same levels of privacy as anyone else. He committed no offence other than being recognisable. The scrotes that went to the media with this should have respected his privacy.
Lets change the action a bit, let's say he was overheard at the airport having an argument with his partner. Then the people that overheard it recognised him, recorded it on their cellphone and went to the papers who published it for tittilation. Is he at fault? I see no difference whatsoever.
I do. An argument with one's partner is unavoidable not a choice...
He made a poor choice regarless of the subsequent rights and wrongs.
But enough of that it's been done to death.
Start TJ. TKB off the bench. Tell AS to out his feet up, "declutter" and that Super Rugby kicks off in 2 and a half months so make the most of it.
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@Stargazer said in AS v TJP:
@Kirwan I don't care about him having sex (although I do object to the cheating, but I agree that's a private matter). He was just incredibly stupid to have it in a disabled toilet at an airport, wearing his AB costume. If he hadn't been so stupid, there wouldn't have been any publicity.
We almost agree, it's just that I don't think ANY of it is our business. It's certainly not worth being reported on in the media (it's not a story) and no matter where he was or what he was wearing, that couple had no right to record a private act.
I believe they recorded in the waiting area of an airport? Reasonably public no? I don't believe the video was a secret camera planted in the bathroom.
I think it is a story for the pure fact that he was "on duty". If that isn't a story then Cruden missing the plane to Argentina isn't a story and it's a slippery slope from there.
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@Stargazer said in AS v TJP:
@Kirwan I don't care about him having sex (although I do object to the cheating, but I agree that's a private matter). He was just incredibly stupid to have it in a disabled toilet at an airport, wearing his AB costume. If he hadn't been so stupid, there wouldn't have been any publicity.
We almost agree, it's just that I don't think ANY of it is our business. It's certainly not worth being reported on in the media (it's not a story) and no matter where he was or what he was wearing, that couple had no right to record a private act.
I believe they recorded in the waiting area of an airport? Reasonably public no? I don't believe the video was a secret camera planted in the bathroom.
I think it is a story for the pure fact that he was "on duty". If that isn't a story then Cruden missing the plane to Argentina isn't a story and it's a slippery slope from there.
Nope, it was down a corridor right outside the toilets. I assume we agree that toilets are private places?
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Nope, it was down a corridor right outside the toilets. I assume we agree that toilets are private places?
I haven't seen nor gone searching for the video - but if that's the case it change things a little bit - but still I don't think when donned in AB garb and on team business that you can play the "private moment" card.
As we have learned from the Broncos scandal a few years back conducting this kind of business even during down time is still a public story. Similar, albiet slightly different incident with Tim Southee, and there was a similar scene with a UK actor on a Qantas flight a decade or so ago.
You can draw whatever conclusion you want about the couple who took the video although that new piece of info takes them more towards "creepers" than "too much time on their hands".
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@No-Quarter yep, that pass to BB that got him through, few other 9s can do it with the speed and precision of AS, so many times this year some of those long flat balls he puts out in front of our backs to score are just sublime.
Which is where the TJP off the bench works so well too, but right now, I think TJP needs to start, AS needs to spend some time with Enoka to get himself right for Super rugby.
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@taniwharugby said in AS v TJP:
@No-Quarter yep, that pass to BB that got him through, few other 9s can do it with the speed and precision of AS, so many times this year some of those long flat balls he puts out in front of our backs to score are just sublime.
Which is where the TJP off the bench works so well too, but right now, I think TJP needs to start, AS needs to spend some time with Enoka to get himself right for Super rugby.
Agree, TJP provides a real point of difference with his aggressive running and tackling in the final 10 - 15 minutes. It's a relief that he's found his feet at test level, and can be relied upon to start when required.
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