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It is also simplistic to look at the semantics of government statements down the track when they were made at times of high emotion and would have been taken as an offer of support at the time. The families would certainly set the bar of 'everything possible' much higher than the reality and also set their own expectations on that.
Isn't this exactly what they are arguing though? They believe 'everything possible' isn't being done because they have experts telling them so. Other experts disagree with their experts so hence the debates.
I also think we don't fully understand the 'culture' around these mining communities. I would guess that there is a creed of 'not leaving anyone behind' that would have had a good sensible reason for existence many years ago when miners would have been looking out for each others safety underground and the dependence on each other was very high. A bit like the US Marines that never leave anyone behind they can potentially save despite full knowledge that in the cold light of day the best course of action would be to do so. -
@dogmeat said in Pike river:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Pike river:
@dogmeat said in Pike river:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback I should have put quote marks around the guaranteeing.
I do hope those posters expounding on how easy it is to have closure never have to face a situation like this.
My experience with sudden death is fortunately slim but I've talked to enough people to know there is no hard and fast rules.
Some people draw consolation from going to a grave site and genuinely feel connected to their lost one in doing so.
I've been to my mothers grave about 4 times in 13 years and feel no need to go at all. Different strokes
No, you just should not have followed a false narrative so easily. Your entire first post was built on an assumption that Key had said something he had not.
Then there is the money side of it, where do you draw the line at the cost? 1 million? 10 million? 100 million?
Taxpayers will have to foot the bill, and ultimately I would rather they spent the money on keeping people alive than retrieving bodies. There has to be a limit surely?My first post was actually about the intellectual laziness and prejudice of blaming everything on the "leftards " when the whole topic is much more nuanced than that.
Would it be intellectually lazy to suggest anyone blamed "everything " on the left? No one has actually done that.
There's obviously a fair bit more to this than just politics but when one side thinks they can use this as a means of giving the govt a black eye and is spreading misinformation that's something that's worthy of discussion.
I'd be interested in knowing who paid for the report that was given to parliament today and what sort of pressure they put on Allied concrete to convince them not to pour concrete last week.
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It seems strange to me to risk people's lives to retrieve bodies from a hole in the ground so you can bury them again somewhere else.
If it was me, I'd ask for the mine to be sealed, never to be used again and be marked as a memorial site.
As for the Lefts use of this for political gain, they have no shame so it's not a surprise. Gross.
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You are correct. It isn't a surprise but I also don't find it worthy commenting on.
I think where @dogmeat was coming from was that many topics on here go down the path of 'look at what the leftards are doing' as if there is a constant need to keep pointing out that the left of the political spectrum in NZ is currently populated by idiots.
Everyone knows that. It is bleedingly obvious and no more so than to anyone on here with left leaning ideals.
I haven't seen anyone here try to argue extreme left views so why the constant need to carry on about 'leftards' ad nauseum when the subject matter at hand is interesting enough to discuss on its own merits.
I know that there are plenty of posters here, myself included most of the time, that avoid comment on any political thread because of the tendency to have any dissenting view lumped in with the generalised 'leftard' view.
Starting topics with comments of how Little or the Greens have reacted to the situation is no better than Stuff comment idiots that use every story to expound their views on John Key.Anyway the 'leftards' aren't the ones really fighting for re-entry, they are just grasping at anything they may offer political capital (just as all politicians do when well behind in the polls). Personally I'm more interested in finding out whether the families really are being realistic, whether their experts are more or less expert than the govts ones etc.
I would like to think that a strong opposition leader presented with facts would help the families see the inevitable (if re-entry really is never going to happen) and help negotiate the next best closing for them.
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If a political party is using the deaths of 29 men for political gain it's understandable it becomes part of the conversation about it.
And then there's Winstons 2c worth....
Like I said the other aspects that interest me are how exactly they convinced allied not to supply concrete, that would have been a nice earner for them but they walked away.
Like I said the report the families presented yesterday was written by people with some pretty extensive credentials in mining, where did the money come from for that? There only really seems to be a core of around six families that have really been pushing this . What happens if people die trying to find the bodies?
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Just seen Bernie Monk on tv and they asked him if he felt Whinny was using his comments about going in as a political tool...Monk said that Whinny had seen thier plan to go in (assuming Whinnys vast mining experience was invaluable here) and thought it was a good one, so was willing to take his comments at face value...pretty naive view if you ask me, even if Whinny was the worlds foremost mining expert, and had seen a fool proof and perfect plan, he would most definitely use it for political interference
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@Crucial said in Pike river:
You are correct. It isn't a surprise but I also don't find it worthy commenting on.
I think where @dogmeat was coming from was that many topics on here go down the path of 'look at what the leftards are doing' as if there is a constant need to keep pointing out that the left of the political spectrum in NZ is currently populated by idiots.
Everyone knows that. It is bleedingly obvious and no more so than to anyone on here with left leaning ideals.
I haven't seen anyone here try to argue extreme left views so why the constant need to carry on about 'leftards' ad nauseum when the subject matter at hand is interesting enough to discuss on its own merits.
I know that there are plenty of posters here, myself included most of the time, that avoid comment on any political thread because of the tendency to have any dissenting view lumped in with the generalised 'leftard' view.
Starting topics with comments of how Little or the Greens have reacted to the situation is no better than Stuff comment idiots that use every story to expound their views on John Key.Anyway the 'leftards' aren't the ones really fighting for re-entry, they are just grasping at anything they may offer political capital (just as all politicians do when well behind in the polls). Personally I'm more interested in finding out whether the families really are being realistic, whether their experts are more or less expert than the govts ones etc.
I would like to think that a strong opposition leader presented with facts would help the families see the inevitable (if re-entry really is never going to happen) and help negotiate the next best closing for them.
NZ has spent way too long quietly letting the left movement get away with stuff like this, particularly as most of the media is left leaning.
When I see morons like Little do photo ops at civil defence in the aftermath of serious earthquakes or Peters pimping corpses, I'm certainly going to comment on it.
Sorry if it makes you uncomfortable. Not sorry.
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@Kirwan As Crucial said any politician way behind in the polls is likely to grasp at any straw.
Our new PM embarrassed himself with topless hakas and his fight for life fiasco.
I pointed out Little was held culpable for allowing an environment that put profits ahead of safety to develop, just as the Clark and Key governments did. No ones apologizing for the lunacy of the left but it'll be interesting when things turn as they inevitably do - if we start hearing about rightards
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Talking of shameless political gain Winston has once again left Little in the shadows again and is insisting the govt wants to block the mine because it's a crime scene and they know an examination will lead to criminal convictions . What a shabby little drunken cretin he is. His mining experience was in the late 60s so I fail to see the relevance.
It's worth pointing out that as of April the 1st this year a whole bunch of safety regulations were put in place and penalties including fines and jail sentences specifically because of Pike river.
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@jegga said in Pike river:
Talking of shameless political gain Winston has once again left Little in the shadows again and is insisting the govt wants to block the mine because it's a crime scene and they know an examination will lead to criminal convictions . What a shabby little drunken cretin he is. His mining experience was in the late 60s so I fail to see the relevance.
It's worth pointing out that as of April the 1st this year a whole bunch of safety regulations were put in place and penalties including fines and jail sentences specifically because of Pike river.
Barry Soper suggests that if Winston wants to be the first one in the government should let him be the canary. I wonder what he would say to that?
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@Crucial said in Pike river:
@canefan said in Pike river:
@Crucial He is a very adept political survivor
Is he what! I think cockroaches recently sent a delegation to him for tips.
According to my cousin who used to work at Bellamy's he is a very good tipper. The later into the evening the bigger the tips!!
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Pike river
