Black Caps vs Bangles
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@shark said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
I'm not much of a Santner fan at this stage of his career, in any form of the game. I think his batting is overrated because he played confidently against Australia on test debut. He's done less than fuck all since. He's not a wicket taker and if he can't average 30+ in any form of the game with the bat to add another string to his bow then it's hard to justify his selection over Sodhi.
Meanwhile, I'm pleased to read there's a good chance Latham will take the gloves in the ODIs vs Australia. I called for this a year ago (either he or Nicholls). It's great for the balance of the side, especially with such a dodgy middle order as it means we can play Broom, Munro, Neesham and de Grandhomme at 5/6/7/8 in a real quantity over quality scenario, then Southee, Boult and either Henry or Ferguson (I'd flag Santner for this series on a bunch of small grounds given you can't rely on him picking up wickets to justify probably getting tonked, and utilise Kane if spin is desperately required).
Hard to argue with any of this. It's also worth pointing out Sodhi is no mug with the bat which helps.
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@Chris-B. said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
Not much love for Santner.
I'm in the opposite camp - I think he's an outstanding prospect and I'm delighted we've got him and that he's being picked. I'd pick Santner instead of Munro in Shark's line-up for the 1st Chappell-Hadlee.
Agree on picking Latham with the gloves though - not as a permanent solution, but for this series.
Where do you see him slotting in long-term? Personally I think 6, but his batting doesn't warrant it at the moment. If he is at 8 then he needs to take a lot more wickets, otherwise it puts a lot of pressure on our other 3 front line bowlers to take 20 wickets.
Problem at the moment is we have a bunch of spinners that average around 40 in first class. Santner and Ish are the youngest at 24, so are probably worth investing the most into. Santner has more potential to score runs (though Ish is no mug), and Ish has more potential to take wickets given he gets a lot more turn (though his record to date suggests otherwise).
The other alternative is to not play a spinner, but unless the wicket is a real seamer and the game is unlikely to go 5 days I don't see that as a viable option.
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@No-Quarter said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
@Chris-B. said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
Not much love for Santner.
I'm in the opposite camp - I think he's an outstanding prospect and I'm delighted we've got him and that he's being picked. I'd pick Santner instead of Munro in Shark's line-up for the 1st Chappell-Hadlee.
Agree on picking Latham with the gloves though - not as a permanent solution, but for this series.
Where do you see him slotting in long-term? Personally I think 6, but his batting doesn't warrant it at the moment. If he is at 8 then he needs to take a lot more wickets, otherwise it puts a lot of pressure on our other 3 front line bowlers to take 20 wickets.
Problem at the moment is we have a bunch of spinners that average around 40 in first class. Santner and Ish are the youngest at 24, so are probably worth investing the most into. Santner has more potential to score runs (though Ish is no mug), and Ish has more potential to take wickets given he gets a lot more turn (though his record to date suggests otherwise).
The other alternative is to not play a spinner, but unless the wicket is a real seamer and the game is unlikely to go 5 days I don't see that as a viable option.
That's what I've argued. Why play a spinner if he isn't test class at the expense of a seamer who is ? ( please note I say 'test class'....'world class' is an extremely rare commodity in a New Zealand cricketer )
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@MN5 because it's arguable that 4th seamer we play is test class any way.
The kid seems to have ability, but it's how to get him experienced enough to be useful without affecting team performance that's the tough question. Send him for a first class season in India.
We seem to have a few "not quite good enough" players in our sides at the moment.
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@MN5 said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
@No-Quarter said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
@Chris-B. said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
Not much love for Santner.
I'm in the opposite camp - I think he's an outstanding prospect and I'm delighted we've got him and that he's being picked. I'd pick Santner instead of Munro in Shark's line-up for the 1st Chappell-Hadlee.
Agree on picking Latham with the gloves though - not as a permanent solution, but for this series.
Where do you see him slotting in long-term? Personally I think 6, but his batting doesn't warrant it at the moment. If he is at 8 then he needs to take a lot more wickets, otherwise it puts a lot of pressure on our other 3 front line bowlers to take 20 wickets.
Problem at the moment is we have a bunch of spinners that average around 40 in first class. Santner and Ish are the youngest at 24, so are probably worth investing the most into. Santner has more potential to score runs (though Ish is no mug), and Ish has more potential to take wickets given he gets a lot more turn (though his record to date suggests otherwise).
The other alternative is to not play a spinner, but unless the wicket is a real seamer and the game is unlikely to go 5 days I don't see that as a viable option.
That's what I've argued. Why play a spinner if he isn't test class at the expense of a seamer who is ? ( please note I say 'test class'....'world class' is an extremely rare commodity in a New Zealand cricketer )
Agreed MN5. In tests I'd much rather play Neesham as a batting all-rounder and fourth seamer who might pick up a couple of wickets, than fart about with Santner who can't justify a position as a batting all-rounder or wicket taking spinner. Unless it was a real turner. And in ODIs I think it's ball-tearingly obvious that Sodhi is the man based on performances against Australia last summer and more recently his outstanding BBL cameo.
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I'm a big admirer of what Vettori managed to achieve. In tests he excelled with the bat and in fact punched well above his weight in terms of ability and carved out a fantastic record thanks to his fearsome dedication to the cause. With the ball he was always tidy, very occasionally took a large haul and maybe once or twice he won a game for us. But his large wicket tally was largely by virtue of his longevity in the game. Comparisons to Vettori are hardly aiming for the stars though.
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@Hooroo said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
@shark said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
Comparisons to Vettori are hardly aiming for the stars though.I agree but neither are the other options IMO. I just think he can settled and worthwhile if they stick with him
Yeah, I'm happy for them to stick with him for now. But if Neesh shows good form for the number 6 spot, or Ish shows good form for the number 8 spot, I wouldn't want them missing out while we try and get Santner up to speed. Stantner is unproven at both domestic and test level so shouldn't command a spot.
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@No-Quarter said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
@Hooroo said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
@shark said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
Comparisons to Vettori are hardly aiming for the stars though.I agree but neither are the other options IMO. I just think he can settled and worthwhile if they stick with him
Yeah, I'm happy for them to stick with him for now. But if Neesh shows good form for the number 6 spot, or Ish shows good form for the number 8 spot, I wouldn't want them missing out while we try and get Santner up to speed. Stantner is unproven at both domestic and test level so shouldn't command a spot.
I agree but neither was Vetorri. It's true though, I don't like making those comparisons
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@No-Quarter said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
Yeah, I'm happy for them to stick with him for now. But if Neesh shows good form for the number 6 spot, or Ish shows good form for the number 8 spot, I wouldn't want them missing out while we try and get Santner up to speed. Stantner is unproven at both domestic and test level so shouldn't command a spot.
Wouldn't Neesham's return put more pressure on de Grandhomme? Santner could then slide down the order
Or is CDG safe because of that 6 wicket haul?
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cricinfo - love it
Vettori's bowling average basically hovered around 33/34 his whole career but man did his batting take off.
As for strike rate after 60 tests he'd taken 194 wickets. After 61 Chris Martin had 199 and after 58 Chris Cairns had 202 so comparable
Tests Batting Av Wickets Last 10 tests Bowling Av
10 17.69 34 34 33.50
20 16.59 61 27 34.96
30 17.18 105 44 32.18
40 16.32 131 26 34.29
50 20.47 150 19 35.78
60 20.94 194 44 34.80
70 24.69 219 25 34.91
80 27.38 245 26 34.80
90 28.02 288 43 33.17
100 30.71 325 37 33.85
113 30.00 362 37 34.36 -
@shark said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
@MN5 said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
@No-Quarter said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
@Chris-B. said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
Not much love for Santner.
I'm in the opposite camp - I think he's an outstanding prospect and I'm delighted we've got him and that he's being picked. I'd pick Santner instead of Munro in Shark's line-up for the 1st Chappell-Hadlee.
Agree on picking Latham with the gloves though - not as a permanent solution, but for this series.
Where do you see him slotting in long-term? Personally I think 6, but his batting doesn't warrant it at the moment. If he is at 8 then he needs to take a lot more wickets, otherwise it puts a lot of pressure on our other 3 front line bowlers to take 20 wickets.
Problem at the moment is we have a bunch of spinners that average around 40 in first class. Santner and Ish are the youngest at 24, so are probably worth investing the most into. Santner has more potential to score runs (though Ish is no mug), and Ish has more potential to take wickets given he gets a lot more turn (though his record to date suggests otherwise).
The other alternative is to not play a spinner, but unless the wicket is a real seamer and the game is unlikely to go 5 days I don't see that as a viable option.
That's what I've argued. Why play a spinner if he isn't test class at the expense of a seamer who is ? ( please note I say 'test class'....'world class' is an extremely rare commodity in a New Zealand cricketer )
Agreed MN5. In tests I'd much rather play Neesham as a batting all-rounder and fourth seamer who might pick up a couple of wickets, than fart about with Santner who can't justify a position as a batting all-rounder or wicket taking spinner. Unless it was a real turner. And in ODIs I think it's ball-tearingly obvious that Sodhi is the man based on performances against Australia last summer and more recently his outstanding BBL cameo.
Neesham isn't really competing with Santner though. The Black Caps always seem to want 5 bowling options so plenty of room for four quicks and a spinner. You could pick Anderson + Neesham ahead of Santner but I don't think that is needed.
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@No-Quarter said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
@Chris-B. said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
Not much love for Santner.
I'm in the opposite camp - I think he's an outstanding prospect and I'm delighted we've got him and that he's being picked. I'd pick Santner instead of Munro in Shark's line-up for the 1st Chappell-Hadlee.
Agree on picking Latham with the gloves though - not as a permanent solution, but for this series.
Where do you see him slotting in long-term? Personally I think 6, but his batting doesn't warrant it at the moment. If he is at 8 then he needs to take a lot more wickets, otherwise it puts a lot of pressure on our other 3 front line bowlers to take 20 wickets.
Problem at the moment is we have a bunch of spinners that average around 40 in first class. Santner and Ish are the youngest at 24, so are probably worth investing the most into. Santner has more potential to score runs (though Ish is no mug), and Ish has more potential to take wickets given he gets a lot more turn (though his record to date suggests otherwise).
The other alternative is to not play a spinner, but unless the wicket is a real seamer and the game is unlikely to go 5 days I don't see that as a viable option.
Todd Astle averages 32 in FC cricket.
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@Duluth said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
@No-Quarter said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
Yeah, I'm happy for them to stick with him for now. But if Neesh shows good form for the number 6 spot, or Ish shows good form for the number 8 spot, I wouldn't want them missing out while we try and get Santner up to speed. Stantner is unproven at both domestic and test level so shouldn't command a spot.
Wouldn't Neesham's return put more pressure on de Grandhomme? Santner could then slide down the order
Or is CDG safe because of that 6 wicket haul?
We have a few options at the moment to try and get the best out of our "not quite good enough" players.
Santner was at 6 in the last two tests, which is where Neesh would bat. Yes we can drop Santner down the order, but then we put a fair amount of pressure on our other three bowlers to take the bulk of the wickets. Either way I don't think we have room for CDGH.
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@hydro11 said in Black Caps vs Bangles:
Neesham isn't really competing with Santner though. The Black Caps always seem to want 5 bowling options so plenty of room for four quicks and a spinner. You could pick Anderson + Neesham ahead of Santner but I don't think that is needed.
Exactly.
Santner is competing with Sodhi, Mark Craig and Jeetan (and the rare occasion where we might want to play four specialist seamers) and in bowling terms he's beating them all - well, just maybe not Jeetan; and in batting terms he's beating them all except Craig.
He's also got a genuine batsman's technique so it's possible he'll eventually be able to genuinely bat in the top 6 - which would be an advance on Chris Cairns - but he's already useful enough to bat at seven and a very good eight. I don't agree at all that he's not done much while batting in tests - he's not played that many innings and he's already got a couple of seventies and equally important he's proved that he's a capable batsman by making lots of starts. For a young guy, not yet 25, learning both disciplines - that's more than good enough.
In looking at his first class etc averages, it's important to remember that these also include international matches, so he hasn't actually played a lot of non-international cricket compared to e.g. Todd Astle - and especially not much in the last couple of years.
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Neesham to me could develop into our own Ben Stokes if he could just get a bit more authority with the ball. There's still time for him to do that. What we'd give for a Chris Cairns right about now, imagine him in this lineup at six and bowling first or second change?
I can see both sides of the Santner argument but if a decent spinner emerged ( ie better than the ones mentioned ) I wouldn't care if he was a worse batsman than Chris Martin. He should be in. Trying a 'fight fire with fire' approach in India by trying to shoehorn two spinners into the team was just embarassing.
In saying all that as @mariner4life alludes to after Boult, Southee and Wagner ( all automatic picks when fit ) the pickings are a bit bare in terms of quicker bowlers. Milne and Henry have issues and Bracewells Hobart heroics were a fucken lifetime ago.
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