Socialism!
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@Rembrandt How many isms can you get into one sentence. Strewth!
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@reprobate said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@reprobate said in Socialism!:
@No-Quarter said in Socialism!:
@reprobate said in Socialism!:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Socialism!:
This quote is gold:
The difference between Nazis and Communists is that when you mention the horrors of Naziism no one ever says "Yeah, but true Naziism has never really been tried.
You fellas love your quotes eh?
The difference is that communism is a system based on an ideal of equality, whereas Naziism is based on an ideal of the exact opposite, and in fact genocide.
True communism cannot exist, because of the moral hazard involved. It's a disastrous proven failure that had led to despotism that has cost a vast number of lives - but you can be a well meaning idiot who supports the ideal, Naziism not so much.
Or:
Wouldn't it be great if everyone was equal?
Wouldn't it be great if all the Jews were dead?Interesting argument, though one I strongly disagree with. Both ideologies are equally awful, and both are based on the ideal of wiping out anyone that doesn't conform.
When people talk about "equality" as something we should aspire too they have to be completely detached from reality to think it represents anything close to a good or moral idea. It's completely flawed (the world is unequal by nature, duh), but also immoral.
It basically boils down to having two people in a room, one with $5 and the other with $15. That's unequal, so to make it fair we have to steal $5 from the person with $15 and give it to the person with $5. That (stealing) is fundamentally immoral - there's no way you can argue otherwise.
Here's an interesting quote - can you guess who said this? (hint: he didn't like Jews).
"We are socialists, we are the enemy of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions".
Your viewpoint does point to a wider issue in western society though - that we are doing a good job teaching our youth about how devastatingly bad the Nazi ideology was, but we are not doing the same for the Communism. Which is nuts when you consider that Communism has been far more destructive, over a much longer period of time, and to many more countries.
And that makes it so much more dangerous.
There's fuck all people identifying as a Nazi or a white supremacist today. Seriously, the KKK has 5000 members in the States. That's 0.002% of the population, and they are a laughing stock. The only reason they've got any coverage lately is because certain outlets (like CNN) want to conflate Trump supporters with being racist, so need to give the KKK some validity which they don't have.
Marxist ideas on the other hand, do have the potential to spread, and in fact already are. "Equality" has made a comeback via ideologues in Universities through Post Modernism (everything is a social construct) and Identity Politics (race, gender, sexuality etc. combined with power). It's unbelievably toxic, it has infected Left wing politics, and is the number one reason we have such a polarizing political environment right now.
And now we have groups like Antifa, who are basically carbon copies of Hitler's people, violently attacking people that disagree with them with the stated aim of tearing down the capitalist system. What they are doing right now is infinitely more dangerous than any white supremacist group, because they actually have support from a decent portion of people on the left who have bought into Identity Politics, and also because history shows this ideology is far more persuasive and destructive than anything we have seen.
I laugh at the self proclaimed alt-right/Nazis. They're a joke. But the communists really do concern me.
firstly, i haven't defended communism in any way. there is however undeniably a difference between a stated policy of genocide and a stated policy of equality (that people commit murder in the name of). the results may be equally evil, but the means of getting there is not.
i counter your 2 people in a room analogy with another - 2 people, 1 of them has some food - redistribute it or starve one of them? what's the moral choice there? my point being that it isn't absolutes. absolute capitalism does not have a welfare state - no universal health or education.
the communist party of the US has an estimated 5000 members too mate. i think the difference you're seeing is that nobody is prepared to give the KKK any sort of platform, so you don't hear from them. i don't think the commies are in any danger of taking anything over - and i think the only time a group like antifa will get mainstream support of any sort is when they are protesting against nazis.
as i've said previously, a commie walking down the street isn't really going to liberate the means of production and give it to the proleteriat. a nazi walking down the street may decide to intimidate / beat the shit out of someone. i guess arseholes like antifa are changing that equation somewhat.
Communism has as much of a stated policy of genocide as the Nazis did. You don't fit the system... you die.
You claim you are not defending communism and then you claim that the means of getting to a communist state is not evil. .....no i didn't. or perhaps i didn't express myself clearly - the means by which communism has been enforced is evil.
again, not defending it, but there is an obvious difference between a system based on political ideology (no matter how wrong), and a system that you are not a part of because of your race.You can console yourself that communism didnt murder based on race (which is wrong btw), or that the system didnt tell them to murder on race.
You probably know this but Stalin did that too. The holodomor was a systematic starvation of millions of ethnic Ukrainians. But of course they were only genetically different from Russians, not visibly different.
I know a great many people who grew up in the DDR. I haven't met one yet who thinks communism is an idea worth another go.
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I remember my dad coming back from touring round China years ago for the second or third time and saying in his opinion the crackdown on the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 were necessary. Deng Xiaoping had lived through the cultural revolution and had seen what happened when youth took control and he vowed never to let it happen again. He was reforming the country slowly, trying to make a pragmatic market economy and the youth were trying to break the system and send the country into chaos. He was enemy no.1 in the west at the time.
Point is, Deng knew through bitter experience and all these youtube videos show that generally, ideologically motivated youth don't have the life experience or wisdom to know what they are doing. -
@Samurai-Jack said in Socialism!:
I remember my dad coming back from touring round China years ago for the second or third time and saying in his opinion the crackdown on the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 were necessary. Deng Xiaoping had lived through the cultural revolution and had seen what happened when youth took control and he vowed never to let it happen again. He was reforming the country slowly, trying to make a pragmatic market economy and the youth were trying to break the system and send the country into chaos. He was enemy no.1 in the west at the time.
Point is, Deng knew through bitter experience and all these youtube videos show that generally, ideologically motivated youth don't have the life experience or wisdom to know what they are doing.Most youth smarten up. Some do not and continue to think communisn is a good system. They are the true evil fucktards.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@antipodean said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
Complete and utter bullshit. Both systems are based on the fact it is ok to murder people who you don't see fitting into your society.
Nazis murdered Jews, blacks etc
Communists murdered Capitalists, farmers, ethnic groups, royalty and anyone else who did not fall into communist linYou're confusing outcome with the underlying theory.
No I am not. The underlying theory of both is a pure society fit for model of system. Dont fit?
You die. The definition of pure is just different.But always happy to learn.. how about you show me how the communist theory has a" live and let live " attitude towards people who want to
be superior to others and not share what they have.That's a different argument and one you're more than welcome to have on your own. The original premise is till correct; the difference between communism and Nazism is no matter how much you accept and identify with Nazism, if you're Jewish (or a communist, or mentally defective, etc.) then you're not welcome.
How they're implemented is different from their teleology.
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@antipodean said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@antipodean said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
Complete and utter bullshit. Both systems are based on the fact it is ok to murder people who you don't see fitting into your society.
Nazis murdered Jews, blacks etc
Communists murdered Capitalists, farmers, ethnic groups, royalty and anyone else who did not fall into communist linYou're confusing outcome with the underlying theory.
No I am not. The underlying theory of both is a pure society fit for model of system. Dont fit?
You die. The definition of pure is just different.But always happy to learn.. how about you show me how the communist theory has a" live and let live " attitude towards people who want to
be superior to others and not share what they have.That's a different argument and one you're more than welcome to have on your own. The original premise is till correct; the difference between communism and Nazism is no matter how much you accept and identify with Nazism, if you're Jewish (or a communist, or mentally defective, etc.) then you're not welcome.
How they're implemented is different from their teleology.
That was your premise. Not mine. Mine is that they are equally evil and murdered anyone who does not fit into their societal model.
Your "difference" is facile and not imortant to how much harm these systems do.Whoppdy de shit... if you agree and give up all free will... you can live as a slave under communism. Yay....great news.. you only get murdered if you want to be an individual with free will. -
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@antipodean said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@antipodean said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
Complete and utter bullshit. Both systems are based on the fact it is ok to murder people who you don't see fitting into your society.
Nazis murdered Jews, blacks etc
Communists murdered Capitalists, farmers, ethnic groups, royalty and anyone else who did not fall into communist linYou're confusing outcome with the underlying theory.
No I am not. The underlying theory of both is a pure society fit for model of system. Dont fit?
You die. The definition of pure is just different.But always happy to learn.. how about you show me how the communist theory has a" live and let live " attitude towards people who want to
be superior to others and not share what they have.That's a different argument and one you're more than welcome to have on your own. The original premise is till correct; the difference between communism and Nazism is no matter how much you accept and identify with Nazism, if you're Jewish (or a communist, or mentally defective, etc.) then you're not welcome.
How they're implemented is different from their teleology.
That was your premise. Not mine. Mine is that they are equally evil and murdered anyone who does not fit into their societal model.
No, it wasn’t my premise. I’ve already had to explain it twice now. I can't be bothered a third time.
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@antipodean said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@antipodean said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@antipodean said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
Complete and utter bullshit. Both systems are based on the fact it is ok to murder people who you don't see fitting into your society.
Nazis murdered Jews, blacks etc
Communists murdered Capitalists, farmers, ethnic groups, royalty and anyone else who did not fall into communist linYou're confusing outcome with the underlying theory.
No I am not. The underlying theory of both is a pure society fit for model of system. Dont fit?
You die. The definition of pure is just different.But always happy to learn.. how about you show me how the communist theory has a" live and let live " attitude towards people who want to
be superior to others and not share what they have.That's a different argument and one you're more than welcome to have on your own. The original premise is till correct; the difference between communism and Nazism is no matter how much you accept and identify with Nazism, if you're Jewish (or a communist, or mentally defective, etc.) then you're not welcome.
How they're implemented is different from their teleology.
That was your premise. Not mine. Mine is that they are equally evil and murdered anyone who does not fit into their societal model.
No, it wasn’t my premise. I’ve already had to explain it twice now. I can't be bothered a third time.
You explaining a facile point nobody was discussing except you is indeed a waste of time
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@antipodean said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@antipodean said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@antipodean said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
Complete and utter bullshit. Both systems are based on the fact it is ok to murder people who you don't see fitting into your society.
Nazis murdered Jews, blacks etc
Communists murdered Capitalists, farmers, ethnic groups, royalty and anyone else who did not fall into communist linYou're confusing outcome with the underlying theory.
No I am not. The underlying theory of both is a pure society fit for model of system. Dont fit?
You die. The definition of pure is just different.But always happy to learn.. how about you show me how the communist theory has a" live and let live " attitude towards people who want to
be superior to others and not share what they have.That's a different argument and one you're more than welcome to have on your own. The original premise is till correct; the difference between communism and Nazism is no matter how much you accept and identify with Nazism, if you're Jewish (or a communist, or mentally defective, etc.) then you're not welcome.
How they're implemented is different from their teleology.
That was your premise. Not mine. Mine is that they are equally evil and murdered anyone who does not fit into their societal model.
No, it wasn’t my premise. I’ve already had to explain it twice now. I can't be bothered a third time.
You explaining a facile point nobody was discussing except you is indeed a waste of time
That was the point being discussed: The difference is that communism is a system based on an ideal of equality, whereas Naziism is based on an ideal of the exact opposite, and in fact genocide.
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@antipodean said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@antipodean said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@antipodean said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@antipodean said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
Complete and utter bullshit. Both systems are based on the fact it is ok to murder people who you don't see fitting into your society.
Nazis murdered Jews, blacks etc
Communists murdered Capitalists, farmers, ethnic groups, royalty and anyone else who did not fall into communist linYou're confusing outcome with the underlying theory.
No I am not. The underlying theory of both is a pure society fit for model of system. Dont fit?
You die. The definition of pure is just different.But always happy to learn.. how about you show me how the communist theory has a" live and let live " attitude towards people who want to
be superior to others and not share what they have.That's a different argument and one you're more than welcome to have on your own. The original premise is till correct; the difference between communism and Nazism is no matter how much you accept and identify with Nazism, if you're Jewish (or a communist, or mentally defective, etc.) then you're not welcome.
How they're implemented is different from their teleology.
That was your premise. Not mine. Mine is that they are equally evil and murdered anyone who does not fit into their societal model.
No, it wasn’t my premise. I’ve already had to explain it twice now. I can't be bothered a third time.
You explaining a facile point nobody was discussing except you is indeed a waste of time
That was the point being discussed: The difference is that communism is a system based on an ideal of equality, whereas Naziism is based on an ideal of the exact opposite, and in fact genocide.
How exactly did you decide that one particular reply to a comment is now the point? Because you say so? Rancid made the initial comment comparing Nazis and communists, and from there a discussion occurred. The comment you have chosen is just one of them.
When exactly did you decide you are the arbiter of what the point being discussed is? Newsflash.. you are not.The NAzis had a concept of equality as well.
Bit guess what... they didn't include people who didn't fit into the societal model they wanted. EXACTLY like communism... has a concept of equality but only for those who fit within the model.
Both systems were based on a system of equality and genocide. You and rembrandt are just plain wrong. -
This post is deleted!
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I think this belongs here. Would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.
Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro has devised a "rabbit plan" to counter the economic war he says is being waged against his government by "imperialist forces".
The president urged crisis-hit Venezuelans to breed rabbits and eat them as a source of animal protein.
Venezuela is facing record levels of child malnutrition amid persistent food shortages.
An opposition politician said the plan was "a bad joke".
President Maduro revealed the idea on state television, saying that "for animal protein, which is such an important issue, a 'rabbit plan' has been approved because rabbits also breed like rabbits".The leader did say that the "rabbit plan" had not got off to a good start and the minister of urban agriculture, Freddy Bernal, said there had been a "cultural problem".
'People put bows on them'
President Maduro said rabbit kittens had been handed to 15 communities as part of a pilot project by Mr Bernal -
Just reading a bit on the local mobs in Melbourne. It scares me that it is growing and people are unaware of their aims.
*Home » What we stand for » Statement of Principles
Statement of PrinciplesSOCIALIST ALTERNATIVE is a revolutionary Marxist organisation. We stand for the overthrow of capitalism and the construction of a world socialist system.
BY SOCIALISM we mean a system in which society is democratically controlled by the working class and the productive resources of society are channelled to abolishing class divisions. Only socialism can rid the world of poverty and inequality, stop imperialist wars, end oppression and exploitation, save the environment from destruction and provide the conditions for the full realisation of human creative potential. A system under the democratic control of the working class is the only basis for establishing a classless, prosperous, sustainable society based on the principle “from each according to their ability, to each according to their need”.
STALINISM IS not socialism. We agree with Trotsky’s characterisation of Stalin as the “gravedigger” of the Russian Revolution. The political character of the regime established by the Stalinist bureaucracy in Russia most closely resembled that placed in power in capitalist countries by victorious fascist movements – an atomised population ruled over by a ruthless bureaucratic dictatorship masquerading behind social demagogy. We stand in the tradition of the revolutionaries who resisted Stalinism, and we fight today to reclaim the democratic, revolutionary politics of Marx, Engels, Luxemburg, Lenin, Trotsky and others from Stalinist distortion.
SOCIALISM CANNOT be won by reform of the current system or by taking over the existing state. Only the revolutionary overthrow of the existing order and the smashing of the capitalist state apparatus can defeat the capitalist class and permanently end its rule. A successful revolution will involve workers taking control of their workplaces, dismantling existing state institutions (parliaments, courts, the armed forces and police) and replacing them with an entirely new state based on genuinely democratic control by the working class.
THE EMANCIPATION of the working class must be the act of the working class itself. Socialism cannot come about by the actions of a minority. The struggle for socialism is the struggle of the great mass of workers to control their lives and their society, what Marx called “a movement of the immense majority in the interests of the immense majority”.
FOR WORKERS to be won to the need for revolution, and for the working class to be cohered organisationally and politically into a force capable of defeating the centralised might of the capitalist state, a revolutionary party is necessary. Such an organisation has to cohere in its ranks the decisive elements among the most class conscious and militant workers. Laying the basis for such a party is the key strategic task for socialists in Australia today.
IT IS NOT enough for a revolutionary party to organise the vanguard of the class. For capitalism to be overthrown, the majority of the working class must be won to revolutionary action and the socialist cause. It is not enough to simply denounce the non-revolutionary organisations and political currents in the workers’ movement. Revolutionaries have to engage reformist organisations via the method of the united front in order to test the possibility for united action in practice and demonstrate to all workers in a non-sectarian way the superiority of revolutionary ideas and practice. We support all demands and movements that tend to improve the position and self-confidence of workers and of other oppressed sections of the population.
SOCIALISTS SUPPORT trade unions as the basic defensive organisations of the working class. We stand for democratic, militant, class struggle unionism and reject class collaborationism. We also stand for political trade unionism – the union movement should champion every struggle against injustice.
CAPITALIST EXPLOITATION of the working class and the natural world has created a situation where the profit system threatens the habitability of the planet. We oppose attempts to halt climate change and environmental destruction through measures that place the burden on working class people and the poor. We demand instead fundamental social and political change that directly challenges the interests of the ruling class. The environmental crisis can only be solved under socialism, where the interests of people and the planet are not counterposed.
SOCIALISTS ARE internationalists. We reject Australian patriotism and nationalism and fight for international working class solidarity. The struggle against capitalism is an international struggle: socialism cannot be built in a single country.
THE IMPERIALIST phase of capitalism has ushered in an era of military conflict that has no precedent in human history. The core element of imperialism is the conflict between imperial powers, or blocks of capital, which attempt by military, diplomatic and commercial means to divide and redivide the world in their own interests. In the conflicts between imperial powers (open or by proxy), revolutionaries do not take sides, least of all with our own ruling classes. Nor do we call for the resolution of inter-imperialist conflict by the “peaceful” methods of international diplomacy. Instead we fight for international working class solidarity and unity, and embrace Lenin’s revolutionary call to “turn the imperialist war between nations into a civil war between classes”. In the case of wars waged or diplomatic pressure exerted by military threat by the imperial powers against colonies and non-imperialist nations, we oppose the imperial power and defend the right of national self-determination.
AUSTRALIA IS an imperialist power in its own right. Through its own economic and military strength, and in alliance with US imperialism, Australian capitalism seeks to politically and militarily dominate its region and project power more broadly. This gives revolutionaries in Australia a special obligation to stand in solidarity with struggles of workers and the oppressed in our region against Australian imperialist intervention and control.
WE RECOGNISE Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people as the first people of Australia. We acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded and condemn the crimes of genocide and dispossession committed by European colonists and the Australian state. We support the struggle for land rights, sovereignty and economic and social justice for Indigenous people.
WE OPPOSE all immigration controls and support open borders. We fight to free all refugees from detention and for the right of asylum seekers to reach Australia. We oppose racism towards migrants. In particular we reject racism towards Muslims, whose right to religious and political freedom is routinely attacked on the spurious grounds of “fighting terrorism”.
WE OPPOSE all oppression on the basis of sex, gender or sexuality. We oppose all forms of discrimination against women and all forms of social inequality between men and women. The struggle for freedom from exploitation and freedom from all forms of oppression includes the liberation of lesbians, gay men, bisexual, transgender and intersex people. We fight for an end to all legal and social discrimination against LGBTI people and all forms of sexist discrimination. We support full reproductive freedom for all women.
ALL THESE forms of oppression, and others like the oppression of the young, the disabled and the elderly, are used to divide the working class and to spare capital the expense of providing for the needs of all members of society. Combating them is an essential part of building a united working class struggle that can win a socialist society. Only a socialist revolution can bring about the genuine liberation of the oppressed and the ability of every human being to realise their full potential.
Copyright © 2017, Socialist Alternative*
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@Rembrandt the old "that wasn't real communism/socialism" argument aye. Gee haven't heard that one before.
Those people are morally reprehensible. I wonder how many more millions of lives they're willing to sacrifice for their socialism experiments?
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@no-quarter This could be super interesting:
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@Rembrandt Crowder is great. He needs to be careful dealing with nutjobs like Antifa though!
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@dogmeat Exactly but they can't see it, its so bizzare.
I went to the last protest in Melbourne. 'Make Victoria Safe Again' vs 'Unite to fight the far right. The anti crime people were mostly actual working class while the rabid anti-racists were violent middle class arts students and their leaders were professors. Their stupidity is insane yet media still portray them as the good guys even when journalists are attacked. It's truly mind boggling.