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I see the logic of a vote on what sort ot leave we have. But not a 2nd one on Leave/Remain.
I have zero faith that a 2nd Leave vote would be respected by the Remain lobby They didn't last time so why would they now? - And I voted Remain
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Whereas I think if you are checking the "so called Will of the people" you should actually ask the relevant question and that is leave Vs Remain.
It was extraordinarily close and hasn't been a screw up only because of May (though God she has not helped!) but because it just might not be as easy or as good as it was promised when it was just a concept without having to back it up.
People say it hasn't been respected, I would say every one of the brexiteers who claimed it would be easy ran with their tails between their legs when it wasn't.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
He changed his mind when it went his way funnily enough....
You do know that Farage backs a second referendum?
Would be well up for that. I think he is wrong about which way it would go but hey at least it would as he says settle it.
No need for 3rd 4th etc. That's a false argument. Another referendum now would be based on some actual experience of what's on offer and although I tend to think public referenda are not the best for deciding big complex issues. We got into this mess through one so think it's the best way out (either way, if that be a confirmation of leave or an acceptance it was the wrong decision in 2016)
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
Whereas I think if you are checking the "so called Will of the people" you should actually ask the relevant question and that is leave Vs Remain.
It was extraordinarily close and hasn't been a screw up only because of May (though God she has not helped!) but because it just might not be as easy or as good as it was promised when it was just a concept without having to back it up.
I'm not of the opinion that it was close, after all the margin was 3.78%. The problem is the framing of the referendum: The 1975 one was returned over 2:1 and Cameron should have insisted that the new referendum meet the same threshold of two-thirds majority or the status quo remained.
People say it hasn't been respected, I would say every one of the brexiteers who claimed it would be easy ran with their tails between their legs when it wasn't.
That appears to be very true.
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
People say it hasn't been respected, I would say every one of the brexiteers who claimed it would be easy ran with their tails between their legs when it wasn't.
Two different things which you really can't conflate,
The result hasn't been respected by a large % of ministers and politicians.
The negotiations and whole Brexit strategy was run by May - a strong Remainer. Brexiters like Gove, Davis, Leadsom & Johnson were frozen out of the process (Davis, The Brexit Secretary, found out about the Chequers Deal less than 12 hours before the Cabinet decided on it).
Had May (a remainer, remember) built a consensus with Brexit members of her Cabinet this whole mess could probably been averted
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But this comes back again to what results are they respecting?
I despise the "Brexit means Brexit" phrase because it is utterly meaningless.
The crew you mention all talked about different version of leaving and almost all of them said no deal wouldn't be an option (some did but a minority, mainly ERG)
Its bloody complex to be fair but I dont buy the line being peddled that there was this one obvious leave that "everyone" voted for. It simply isn't true.
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Though I will whole heartedly agree the conservative May govt has royally screwed it.
Even calling the snap election that made them DUP whipping boys was a remarkably poor effort.
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Agree with all of that except still maintain that is a huge chunk if the country pretty evenly split. (Though acknowledge there is still a clear winner)
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Oh and would also like to add.
For fucks sake Corbyn! We needed an opposition to make this whole thing work and you have been utterly ineffective!
Should have had proper push back and an alternative to the shitstorm of May (even if just to have a Brexit that could actually work) but instead we have had two very ineffective leaders for both of the main two parties.
It sucks
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
The crew you mention all talked about different version of leaving and almost all of them said no deal wouldn't be an option (some did but a minority, mainly ERG)
May was the PM. May was Leader of the Conservatives. It was May's job to build consensus and a common approach on a deal. She failed miserably, May was a Remainer. To blame Brexiteers for her mess or say they failed to come up with a common approach or away when they realised the problems really is untenable.
As for the No Deal, Leavers Johnson, Gove, Leadsom, Raab and Baker all spoke out against and voted against taking No Deal off the table.
I agree it's now complex - but it needn't have been. This whole mess is down to a weak PM with her "my way only" approach , big swathes of MPs - Soubry, Umanna, Cable etc - who didn't like the referendum result and tried to thwart it from day one, and a bunch of fundamentalist nutters in the ERG.
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
For fucks sake Corbyn! We needed an opposition to make this whole thing work and you have been utterly ineffective!
Corbyn's a life-long Leaver. It's probable the only reason he favours a Customs Union with the EU is it stops a UK/US Free Trade Deal
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
Even calling the snap election that made them DUP whipping boys was a remarkably poor effort.
Way up there with Hilary Clinton calling Trump voters "Deplorables"
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
UK Revoke Article 50
"Revoke Article 50", "have another referendum" I just can't get my head around the utter stupidity of people who think this would resolve anything.
Don't these MP's think? Do they expect the 17.2m who voted to leave to simply shrug their shoulders and accept staying in the EU or to respect the result of a 2nd referendum if the vote is to remain? Dangerous naivety of a staggering degree.
The dangers of a winner takes all referendum. At the moment the 16.4m who voted to remain are being expected to shrug their shoulders an accept leaving.
Lets keep having referendums until the Remainers get the result they want - then we can say the will of the people has spoken.
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May has mostly been useless. But then her party put her there, and so far have wimped out of their chances to get rid of her & put themselves forward to do a better job when the acid went on...
And yet, Corbyn's only possible value is to remind us that there are far worse options than May...
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The glib reply of someone who is not interested in what the will of the people actually is but just that "their side" won back in 2016 when project fear was being bandied about.
Of course project fear looks a little closer to reality now so clearly you fear a confirmation referendum on the facts about something so monumental to the UK long term future.
It's a straw man argument this "how many referendums"
Clearly one more is needed on the facts and options available before stepping off the cliff edge.
But I can see why you fear a second one....
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
The glib reply of someone who is not interested in what the will of the people actually is but just that "their side" won back in 2016 when project fear was being bandied about.
Of course project fear looks a little closer to reality now so clearly you fear a confirmation referendum on the facts about something so monumental to the UK long term future.
It's a straw man argument this "how many referendums"
Clearly one more is needed on the facts and options available before stepping off the cliff edge.
But I can see why you fear a second one....
Wow..... that is some stunning lack of awareness.
The will of the people was gauged and counted. It has been done,, the fact people like you could not handle the result from day one is the issue. People knew exactly what they were voting on, the question was clear. You can try and squirm and claim without basis that people didnt know what they were voting for, but they did. Leave or Remain.
If Remain had won, and the EU had subsequently done something dumb like letting in a few more million refugees would you also have demanded another referendum because remainers didnt know what they were voting for? I doubt it.Project fear? Is that the remainers attempting to tell everyone how everything would collapse the day the UK voted to leave.... cause.. yeah that never happened.
And it is no straw man argument to ask hoe many more referendums, just because you dont like the question doesnt make it a straw man, it just makes your position weak. And clearly no more referendums are needed.
But as a compromise how about you support a second referendum but the choice has to be between no deal leave and Mays deal leave? How about that? Methinks you wouldnt support that.. because you are not about listening to the people, you are just about your side winning, by any means necessary and the will of the people means nothing. -
@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
The glib reply of someone who is not interested in what the will of the people actually is but just that "their side" won back in 2016 when project fear was being bandied about.
Of course project fear looks a little closer to reality now so clearly you fear a confirmation referendum on the facts about something so monumental to the UK long term future.
It's a straw man argument this "how many referendums"
Clearly one more is needed on the facts and options available before stepping off the cliff edge.
But I can see why you fear a second one....
Fuckin' hell. You are seriously suggesting ignore the will of the people because clearly they were too uninformed to know what was good for them.
There can be another referendum, but ONLY on points connected to leaving.
Because LEAVE won and REMAIN lost. End of.
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Funny being lectured about the will of the people and what we were being told by people who were not here but "know what people were thinking"
Certainly not part of the "people" but very keen to speak in their behalf....
I also note how much you both fear a question being asked of the people which might allow them to change their minds.....
Nobody is "taking" away Brexit from the people. If they still want it they will vote for it.
And you really have no idea what Brexit they voted for and neither do I (that's part of the problem but you seem to magically know so congrats)
Brexit