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@Rocky-Rockbottom said in The Folau Factor:
@No-Quarter said in The Folau Factor:
all because of a single social media post. We live in strange times.
It is such a mindfuck. If I'm an agent the first thing I tell my player is "if you look on your phone you will see there's these two internet websites called instagram.com and twitter.com. Do not register an account at either of these fucking websites. That is all."
Nobody probably disagrees that is good avice. It is why it is good advice that is the problem, athletes should not be scared to say what they believe as long as it is legal
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@Crucial said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@NightmareHitter said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
I feel greatly saddened and wanted to express this. Not sure others feel the same way but....
After almost 38 years of passionate (and i mean passionate) sports following of Rugby, league, cricket and boxing etc I feel we are now watching the death of true competitive sports.
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Politics has fully taken over now.
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Freedom of speech no longer exists
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Money dictates the ruling opinion
Politics has NOT fully taken over - Massive overstatement.
Freedom of speech still exists - anyone (in most countries) - anyone is free to say anything. What happens as a consequence is the debated point
The consequences are always the debated point, no matter what. Otherwise you can claim people had freedom of speech in Nazi Germany, it was just what happens as a consequence that was up for debate.
Simply put, if the consequences are disproportionate then the value of free speech is eroded.
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@Crucial said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
Freedom of speech still exists - anyone (in most countries) - anyone is free to say anything. What happens as a consequence is the debated point
A society where you can lose your job for legally expressing an opinion is not a society which has freedom of speech.
Sportsmen and woman who express an opinion and speak out for gay rights (rightly) aren't dropped from their teams - but those with an opposite view are.
As you say, sport reflects society.
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@NightmareHitter said in [Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?]
Rieko is faster not better than Falou.
This comment is more offensive than anything Folau tweeted.
I'm all for free speech but a line has to be drawn somewhere.
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@No-Quarter said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@Crucial said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@NightmareHitter said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
I feel greatly saddened and wanted to express this. Not sure others feel the same way but....
After almost 38 years of passionate (and i mean passionate) sports following of Rugby, league, cricket and boxing etc I feel we are now watching the death of true competitive sports.
-
Politics has fully taken over now.
-
Freedom of speech no longer exists
-
Money dictates the ruling opinion
Politics has NOT fully taken over - Massive overstatement.
Freedom of speech still exists - anyone (in most countries) - anyone is free to say anything. What happens as a consequence is the debated point
The consequences are always the debated point, no matter what. Otherwise you can claim people had freedom of speech in Nazi Germany, it was just what happens as a consequence that was up for debate.
Simply put, if the consequences are disproportionate then the value of free speech is eroded.
I think that is the best elucidated post in regard to the Fallow issue
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@No-Quarter said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@Crucial said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@NightmareHitter said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
I feel greatly saddened and wanted to express this. Not sure others feel the same way but....
After almost 38 years of passionate (and i mean passionate) sports following of Rugby, league, cricket and boxing etc I feel we are now watching the death of true competitive sports.
-
Politics has fully taken over now.
-
Freedom of speech no longer exists
-
Money dictates the ruling opinion
Politics has NOT fully taken over - Massive overstatement.
Freedom of speech still exists - anyone (in most countries) - anyone is free to say anything. What happens as a consequence is the debated point
The consequences are always the debated point, no matter what. Otherwise you can claim people had freedom of speech in Nazi Germany, it was just what happens as a consequence that was up for debate.
Simply put, if the consequences are disproportionate then the value of free speech is eroded.
I am curious though, where the line can/should be drawn regarding public statements from a high profile employee and who decides what a proportionate consequence is. eg if Folau was expressing extreme racist views doesn't that come under the same definition of free speech? Therefore someone gets to decide whether that is intolerable or not.
If the concept of free speech is the same and the view of the consequence decider the same are people therefore just really arguing that some things claim immunity because they are religious beliefs?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@Crucial said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
Freedom of speech still exists - anyone (in most countries) - anyone is free to say anything. What happens as a consequence is the debated point
A society where you can lose your job for legally expressing an opinion is not a society which has freedom of speech.
Sportsmen and woman who express an opinion and speak out for gay rights (rightly) aren't dropped from their teams - but those with an opposite view are.
As you say, sport reflects society.
Legally, I can call my boss a fucking piston wristed gibbon. I can shout it from the rooftops if I want, legally.
Freedom of speech means I can’t lose my job?
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@MajorRage said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@Crucial said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
Freedom of speech still exists - anyone (in most countries) - anyone is free to say anything. What happens as a consequence is the debated point
A society where you can lose your job for legally expressing an opinion is not a society which has freedom of speech.
Sportsmen and woman who express an opinion and speak out for gay rights (rightly) aren't dropped from their teams - but those with an opposite view are.
As you say, sport reflects society.
Legally, I can call my boss a fucking piston wristed gibbon. I can shout it from the rooftops if I want, legally.
Freedom of speech means I can’t lose my job?
It would help us enormously if we knew who you worked for.
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@Catogrande said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@MajorRage said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@Crucial said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
Freedom of speech still exists - anyone (in most countries) - anyone is free to say anything. What happens as a consequence is the debated point
A society where you can lose your job for legally expressing an opinion is not a society which has freedom of speech.
Sportsmen and woman who express an opinion and speak out for gay rights (rightly) aren't dropped from their teams - but those with an opposite view are.
As you say, sport reflects society.
Legally, I can call my boss a fucking piston wristed gibbon. I can shout it from the rooftops if I want, legally.
Freedom of speech means I can’t lose my job?
It would help us enormously if we knew who you worked for.
Self employed?
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@MajorRage said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@Crucial said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
Freedom of speech still exists - anyone (in most countries) - anyone is free to say anything. What happens as a consequence is the debated point
A society where you can lose your job for legally expressing an opinion is not a society which has freedom of speech.
Sportsmen and woman who express an opinion and speak out for gay rights (rightly) aren't dropped from their teams - but those with an opposite view are.
As you say, sport reflects society.
Legally, I can call my boss a fucking piston wristed gibbon. I can shout it from the rooftops if I want, legally.
Freedom of speech means I can’t lose my job?
Apparently so...
A society where you can lose your job for legally expressing an opinion is not a society which has freedom of speech.
FFS you can lose your job if your wear an 'offensive' t shirt to work and you'd have to be thick not to know it.
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@MajorRage said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
Legally, I can call my boss a fucking piston wristed gibbon. I can shout it from the rooftops if I want, legally.
Actually it isn't legal - you are using offensive language in public and poss. harassment charges (depends on local law, I guess). And you are probably open to libel action. You could lose your job for committing a criminal act.
Big difference from sacking someone for expressing an opinion on their company's leadership or stopping someone being a foster carer as they have certain legitimate political/social opinions.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@MajorRage said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
Legally, I can call my boss a fucking piston wristed gibbon. I can shout it from the rooftops if I want, legally.
Actually it isn't legal - you are using offensive language in public and poss. harassment charges (depends on local law, I guess). And you are probably open to libel action. You could lose your job for committing a criminal act.
Big difference from sacking someone for expressing an opinion on their company's leadership or stopping someone being a foster carer as they have certain legitimate political/social opinions.
That's a can of worms, that one. That Thacker woman presided over Rotherham Child Services during the Muslim sex gangs issue and lost her job over it (among a few others). Rotherham Council later confirmed that they stood by the decision to remove the foster kids but that it had been handled badly and left the impression that the membership of UKIP was the sole reason for removal of the kids. They later went on to say that membership of UKIP would not prevent someone from being considered as a foster carer nor would it be a reason for removing a foster child.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@MajorRage said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
Legally, I can call my boss a fucking piston wristed gibbon. I can shout it from the rooftops if I want, legally.
Actually it isn't legal - you are using offensive language in public and poss. harassment charges (depends on local law, I guess). And you are probably open to libel action. You could lose your job for committing a criminal act.
Seems I break the law all the time then. Change it to something else then using less aggressive language and indirect. The point is the same.
The argument is really about whether companies should be allowed to create contracts with people that restricts their free speech / religious views.
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@MajorRage said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
The argument is really about whether companies should be allowed to create contracts with people that restricts their free speech / religious views.
You can negotiate it sure. You can negotiate and sign an employment contract that waives any rights and allows for immediate termination if an employee becomes pregnant too. Good luck enforcing it.
In Australia you aren't going to be able to negotiate away elements of the Fair Work Australia Act unless there are compelling reasons to do so (i.e. reasonable for a church employing a priest to expect them to teach in accordance with the church). Political opinion and religious views are protected classes under the Fair Work Act.
As @Victor-Meldrew says you can pretty quickly get into harassment and if Folau was @ ing certain people on Twitter, calling out specific people or even threatening to not play with/against homosexuals the ARU may have a case.
I truly hope this goes to trial (spoiler it wont ARU will settle) because I look forward to seeing the ARU explain how expressing an opinion held (at least in part) by 39% of the country, as part of a broader message, expressed on his own Twitter account is grounds for termination.
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From what I recall, UK case law says you have a right to express a religious belief that homosexuality is a sin and quote from the Bible/Koran in the workplace as long as it's not offensive or harassing behaviour.
Political views aren't specifically covered by UK Human Rights law and it's perfectly legal to sack someone for expressing a political view or joining a political party - rarely happens as the employee would win a case on harassment or unfair dismissal grounds.
So Folau could be sacked for voting for Tommy Robinson but not for saying gay people will burn in hell.....
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@Victor-Meldrew I guess Tommy has slightly more chance of getting to where he's trying to get than the others though...
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@Bones said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
@Victor-Meldrew I guess Tommy has slightly more chance of getting to where he's trying to get than the others though...
Oh great, another thread about tommy Robinson
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@rotated said in Are you watching the death rattle of all authentic sports?:
In Australia .....Political opinion and religious views are protected classes under the Fair Work Act.
True that you are protected from discrimination due to political views or your religion but not exactly from religious views.
Subtle but possibly important difference.
Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions