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@canefan they do mate. Or perhaps they seem to. I'm conscious of some bias at play where the news saturation gives an exaggerated notion of frequency.
Most things in the US are too large to coherently imagine and when I think of the volume of police interactions every day all through the states I'm sceptical of the significance of these individual cases representing a norm.
The cop killing crisis plays out better on tv than on the data of all police incidents, I wonder.
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@barbarian said in US Politics:
@Siam said in US Politics:
@canefan if he meant the unlawful looters when he said " shooting starts" then that's a reasonable argument right there.
How is it reasonable to suggest looters will be shot? In what country is that an acceptable response to a criminal but non-violent act? If he said looters will be locked up, sure. But instead his poor choice of words causes makes a delicate situation worse.
The fact is America is a deeply divided nation. Protesters taking over a police station and setting fire to buildings in a major city isn't a normal thing. Trump is not the cause of these actions, or this general situation. But at the same time you can't point to much he's doing to make things better.
I worry for the future of that nation.
Just letting you know I'm agreeing with you.
But this "civil disobedience" is not "non- violent".
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@Siam said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@Siam said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
The States has a big problem with police brutality, and black men are massively over represented as being on the receiving end of it.
This is where we need stats and data. I've heard Larry Elder and Thomas Sowell and others refute this generalisation and the stats they cite plus their conviction on the matter paints a different picture from the accepted stereotypes
The stats back this up. From memory 27% of people killed by police are black, despite making up 13% of the population. They are over represented.
There's some important discussion they need to have on why that is, and granted racism doesn't tell the whole story, but it does play an important role. And when you take into account the countries awful history with race relations, it's little wonder incidents like this have such a big impact.
Wait. What? 73% of people killed by police are not black??
Who are those poor buggers and why don't their lives matter?đ¤I appreciate the over represented black people per capita bit, every country has one of those but the black community is also massively overrepresented in homicides. Nobody kills more black men in America than other black men. Police shoot more white people than black each year and police officers report heightened concern when dealing with a dangerous black man because of the inevitable backlash to follow.
Stats based on raw population numbers don't detail the specifics of criminal communities and their circumstances. Who dominates the criminal space and why.There's a lot of killing going on and the cops aren't doing most of it at all.
No way is that kneeling fuckwit anywhere near the norm for US cop behaviour, I hope.
Or, maybe the cops stink. Not necessarily a racial thing - Justine Ruszczyk also lived in Minneapolis đ
I won't go too deep into this as I simply don't know enough about the States to make informed comments, but I don't think anything you've said there counters what I've talked about. You've just listed a bunch of other problems. All I'll say is the race related problems are always going to be more emotionally charged across the country given the context of their history.
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@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@Siam said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@Siam said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
The States has a big problem with police brutality, and black men are massively over represented as being on the receiving end of it.
This is where we need stats and data. I've heard Larry Elder and Thomas Sowell and others refute this generalisation and the stats they cite plus their conviction on the matter paints a different picture from the accepted stereotypes
The stats back this up. From memory 27% of people killed by police are black, despite making up 13% of the population. They are over represented.
There's some important discussion they need to have on why that is, and granted racism doesn't tell the whole story, but it does play an important role. And when you take into account the countries awful history with race relations, it's little wonder incidents like this have such a big impact.
Wait. What? 73% of people killed by police are not black??
Who are those poor buggers and why don't their lives matter?đ¤I appreciate the over represented black people per capita bit, every country has one of those but the black community is also massively overrepresented in homicides. Nobody kills more black men in America than other black men. Police shoot more white people than black each year and police officers report heightened concern when dealing with a dangerous black man because of the inevitable backlash to follow.
Stats based on raw population numbers don't detail the specifics of criminal communities and their circumstances. Who dominates the criminal space and why.There's a lot of killing going on and the cops aren't doing most of it at all.
No way is that kneeling fuckwit anywhere near the norm for US cop behaviour, I hope.
Or, maybe the cops stink. Not necessarily a racial thing - Justine Ruszczyk also lived in Minneapolis đ
I won't go too deep into this as I simply don't know enough about the States to make informed comments, but I don't think anything you've said there counters what I've talked about. You've just listed a bunch of other problems. All I'll say is the race related problems are always going to be more emotionally charged across the country given the context of their history.
That's true, I have. But I don't think skin colour alone counts for these disparities. I question if these "patterns" are due to race primarily and not other socio-economic behaviours.
But you didn't say that and I have little to quibble about your opinion. đ
Race related problems are more emotionally charged, true, but I don't think these problems are unique to race. Racial analysis is only skin deep. These issues are way more complex and race is the least defining explanation for USAs social ills. The only conclusion to " it's all racist" is to find a dead set blatant racist heading the system with directives in kind. These are never found despite repeated insistence of systemic racism. Black police chiefs dominate police forces in the states, but yet these issues seem to continue.
Behaviour and circumstances rules the criminal space in all countries, not merely skin pigment.
Coleman Hughes caused me to reconsider the popular narrative. Here's an example of his writing
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More and more it's looking like Antifa is responsible for starting a lot of the violence at the protests. Lots of black people on Twitter talking about it, with footage to back up what they are saying.
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@Siam Coleman Hughes is fantastic. Another person worth looking up is Chloe Valdary who is in a similar mould. A real voice of reason.
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@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
More and more it's looking like Antifa is responsible for starting a lot of the violence at the protests. Lots of black people on Twitter talking about it, with footage to back up what they are saying.
Yet the actual Mayor of Minneapolis refuses to call out this obvious point, that this is LEFT wing violence.
It's those dastardly white supremacists again - they hate it so much when a white cop kills a black man that they riot.
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@Frank said in US Politics:
Yet the actual Mayor of Minneapolis refuses to call out this obvious point, that this is LEFT wing violence.
Why on earth does it matter how the protestors might vote? This is a big part of the problem, people just view this through whatever political prism they choose to.
The truth is it's a multi-faceted problem with many causes and no easy solutions. Republicans and Democrats share blame equally.
But as long as people see this as either 'dirty left wing protestors' or 'corrupt right wing MAGA cops' then this problem is just going to keep getting worse and worse.
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@barbarian said in US Politics:
@Frank said in US Politics:
Yet the actual Mayor of Minneapolis refuses to call out this obvious point, that this is LEFT wing violence.
Why on earth does it matter how the protestors might vote? This is a big part of the problem, people just view this through whatever political prism they choose to.
The truth is it's a multi-faceted problem with many causes and no easy solutions. Republicans and Democrats share blame equally.
But as long as people see this as either 'dirty left wing protestors' or 'corrupt right wing MAGA cops' then this problem is just going to keep getting worse and worse.
...and a president that stirs up divisiveness.
Next problem will be because of this......https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/5283349002?__twitter_impression=true
âQualified immunityâ.
I get the concept but in practice this is seriously fucked up and if this cop gets off under this the next round will start. -
@barbarian
Its important the public know who is doing the rioting.This is left wing violence.
To a certain extent, these left wing rioters are emboldened because the people in charge are so afraid to be heavy-handed because "police brutality" will be their rallying cry if they are dealt with severely (which they should be)
I would be looking to protect people's businesses and livelihoods and showing no mercy with this scum.
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@Frank said in US Politics:
@barbarian
Its important the public know who is doing the rioting.This is left wing violence.
Why? What purpose does knowing their political view serve?
Surely it's more relevant to consider their age, place of residence, race, income if you actually want to understand who they are and why they are doing it.
But sadly it seems in America now the only relevant fact is if you're on the blue team or the red team.
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@Frank said in US Politics:
@barbarian
Its important the public know who is doing the rioting.This is left wing violence.
To a certain extent, these left wing rioters are emboldened because the people in charge are so afraid to be heavy-handed because "police brutality" will be their rallying cry if they are dealt with severely (which they should be)
I would be looking to protect people's businesses and livelihoods and showing no mercy with this scum.
You have really focused on the wrong thing here.
âLeft wingâ is Not the reason people are rioting.
Have a think about why riots happening who participates when they do.
It is nothing to do with left or right wing. The catalyst may be something that affects one part of society more than another but usually it is civil unrest that gets out of control with subsequent escalation then opportunism.
I would guess that plenty of the cops are Democrats. I would guess that plenty of the rioters donât even give a shit about left/right.
Thereâs no excuse for law breaking. Iâm not trying to justify anything. However, there is a perception right or wrong, that blacks are dealt with by cops differently and assumptions are made that different. The point is that until demonstrative actions are taken to halt these instances of overkill by white police against black citizens this will continue to create flashpoints. That onus is on all govts, dem or repub.
the moment you start finger pointing at left or right and categorising people you are looking to divide.
Can I ask you this? In your job do you have people of different ways of thinking and working in your team? People that approach life differently?
Just like rugby, it takes all sorts to create a good team. Why is it that when it comes to political views you canât accept that as well, and instead look to divide the team?
So many advancements in society have come from this so-called âleftâand from protestors stretching acceptance. So many other good things have come from the so called ârightâ.
Critique and discuss, choose who is best to. Manage at particular times, call out dicks for being dicks, but FFS quit this categorisation, name calling and blaming bullshit that seeks to entrench divisiveness.
Rant over. -
@Crucial said in US Politics:
Critique and discuss, choose who is best to. Manage at particular times, call out dicks for being dicks, but FFS quit this categorisation, name calling and blaming bullshit that seeks to entrench divisiveness.
Rant over.Would you really feel the same way if someone pointed the finger at the right wing in these circumstances
And there is a difference between protesting and rioting
and are you sure
" Iâm not trying to justify anything. However, there is a perception right or wrong, that blacks are dealt with by cops differently and assumptions are made that different. The point is that until demonstrative actions are taken to halt these instances of overkill by white police against black citizens this will continue to create flashpoints " -
@Winger said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
Critique and discuss, choose who is best to. Manage at particular times, call out dicks for being dicks, but FFS quit this categorisation, name calling and blaming bullshit that seeks to entrench divisiveness.
Rant over.Would you really feel the same way if someone pointed the finger at the right wing in these circumstances
Yes
And there is a difference between protesting and rioting
Correct
and are you sure
" Iâm not trying to justify anything. However, there is a perception right or wrong, that blacks are dealt with by cops differently and assumptions are made that different. The point is that until demonstrative actions are taken to halt these instances of overkill by white police against black citizens this will continue to create flashpoints "Try some basic comprehension.
EXplaining a reason why something could happen is not justification.
US Politics