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@Kirwan said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Godder said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Hooroo said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Godder said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Hooroo said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Godder said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
He might the first to get life without parole.
We really need to question the system if he doesn't.
If he doesn't get it, nobody will. The main question for the court is whether he could ever be released on parole safely.
Some things we do in life don't deserve that question to be asked.
The rule of law requires it, but the ideology and actions suggest someone who can't safely be released ever, so the judge can justify it easily enough.
That also means he can't be deported, but that's worth it IMO.
Yep. Like you said, if this crime doesn't meet the threshold you'd have to wonder what would. Might as well strike it from the books if you can't use it here.
The only shadow of doubt is if he's finally listening to his lawyers and the guilty plea is aimed at avoiding life without parole and solitary confinement which is what he was staring down the barrel of.
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@taniwharugby Safety yes, but also that he might infect the other inmates with his beliefs, so if he has renounced his beliefs, then that will stop being an issue (eventually).
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@taniwharugby I doubt anyone will actually believe it for years, but maybe in 20 years or something.
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@Godder said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Hooroo said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Godder said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Hooroo said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Godder said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
He might the first to get life without parole.
We really need to question the system if he doesn't.
If he doesn't get it, nobody will. The main question for the court is whether he could ever be released on parole safely.
Some things we do in life don't deserve that question to be asked.
The rule of law requires it, but the ideology and actions suggest someone who can't safely be released ever, so the judge can justify it easily enough.
That also means he can't be deported, but that's worth it IMO.
Deportation isn't the best answer anyway.
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@Smudge said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Godder said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Hooroo said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Godder said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Hooroo said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Godder said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
He might the first to get life without parole.
We really need to question the system if he doesn't.
If he doesn't get it, nobody will. The main question for the court is whether he could ever be released on parole safely.
Some things we do in life don't deserve that question to be asked.
The rule of law requires it, but the ideology and actions suggest someone who can't safely be released ever, so the judge can justify it easily enough.
That also means he can't be deported, but that's worth it IMO.
Deportation isn't the best answer anyway.
Even better! Dump him at Darling Harbour with no conviction and let them see what cleaning up garbage you had no part in looks like.
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@Godder said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Hooroo said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Godder said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Hooroo said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
@Godder said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
He might the first to get life without parole.
We really need to question the system if he doesn't.
If he doesn't get it, nobody will. The main question for the court is whether he could ever be released on parole safely.
Some things we do in life don't deserve that question to be asked.
The rule of law requires it, but the ideology and actions suggest someone who can't safely be released ever, so the judge can justify it easily enough.
That also means he can't be deported, but that's worth it IMO.
Good.
After the debacle with releasing the Rainbow Warrior bombers, I don't want anyone being let loose from NZ until they've served their time.
And this clown will find life harder on New Zealand soil.
Should just be cemented into his cell for life.
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@Godder said in The Politics Quiz!:
@rotated said in The Politics Quiz!:
@canefan said in The Politics Quiz!:
@dogmeat said in The Politics Quiz!:
@nzzp said in The Politics Quiz!:
Puts us into perspective though, right wingers in NZ are centrist or left wing overseas
In the early 80's Jeanne Kirkpatrick, Reagan's UN Ambassador and an ardent neocon, said that both Labour and National (Muldoon's National) were far to the left of the Democrats.
Right now ACT would still be to the left of the Dems
On what issues though? There is no way all the major parties in NZ are to the left of the Dems on cultural issues. The most progressive states in the US beat NZ handily on gay marriage reform, weed legalization and generally have laxer abortion laws (24 weeks+)
Death penalty would be a big one - I don't think any major NZ parties have seriously suggested its reintroduction since Bolger mused on the idea of a referendum in 1992, but there are still plenty of Democrats (particularly in Southern states) who think it should remain legal for treason and the worst murders. That said, we beat most states in that race, but not all.
Legality of prostitution is another - only Nevada has legalised it in the USA.
It's also hard to compare easily as at least some of those examples were legalised in the USA by the courts (for some things at a state level by the state supreme court, for other issues nationwide by SCOTUS), not the legislatures as happened here e.g. abortion and same sex marriage. Also, we legalised civil unions in the same year as the first state legalised same sex marriage, which was Massachusetts by order of the Massachusetts Supreme Court in 2004 (according to the unimpeachable oracle of all things internet, Wikipedia).
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Moved this from Politics Quiz to Mosque Shooting..
Doing this in multiple posts due to weird posting issue meaning I can't see past 9 lines to edit ...
But interesting point above re death penalty and Tarrant.
Can anyone seriously see him get anything other than life without parole?
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@booboo said in The Politics Quiz!:
Nines lines ... so next reply ...
So what is the difference between a true life sentence and the death sentence?
Genuine question. Not advocating for.
But his life is over.
Finality.
His life is over, and so is that Nowegian Anders Breivik. The issue is for every 'open and shut' case like those two, there is a long tail of people who get convicted because they are poor, can't afford good representation, are the wrong colour, or in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The Innocence Project is one example of sorting out people whose convictions are horrifically bad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_Project).
So, to answer your question, life imprisonment allows for the potential that we got it wrong. Death sentence does not. Personally, I can live with that as a society, as for every Tarrant, there is also an Arthur Allan Thomas.
Edit: Other notable NZ cases that spring to mind are Peter Ellis, David Dougherty, Teina Pora arguably (controversially) David Bain
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@booboo said in The Politics Quiz!:
But interesting point above re death penalty and Tarrant.
Can anyone seriously see him get anything other than life without parole?
He's relatively young and pleaded guilty, so if he demonstrates genuine remorse and a change in views, the judge might think a 40 or 50 year non-parole period is sufficient (emphasis on might - it doesn't look likely to me).
In terms of why not just reintroduce hanging, @nzzp has the right of it - humans make mistakes, and sometimes worse (eg framing people, planting evidence etc), and access to justice is heavily based on financial ability to fund a defence, so it will mostly be poor people who get hanged and poor people who suffer miscarriages of justice.
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@nzzp yeah I guess it makes it tough for those prosecuting to decide today, we go for the death penalty, but tomorrow due to a plea we dont, despite one being clear cut, other less so...
I listened to the podcast in the darkness, where the guy was sentenced to death (and again at 5 subsequent re-trials) and yet today, Curtis Flowers is out on bail awaiting the state to determine if they try him for a 7th time after the Superem court of USA quashed his conviction, because the evidence was pretty average at best (he may be guilty, but the evidence didnt stack up from what I heard - obviously podcast was slanted for me to come to that conclusion)
I think Tarant deserves it, but if it is there, prosecuters will likely use it, and some cases the evidence isnt always sufficient to go that far IMO.
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Am still struggling with the put him away for life thing.
BTW I've moved discussion to the Mosque Shooting thread.
At what point does it become "cruel and unusual "? And is that even a a thing in NZ / Commonwealth law?
Are we punishing? Deterring? Trying to rehabilitate? Or removing a future that?
This really has me confused and conflicted.
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@booboo said in Christchurch Gunman in Mosque:
Am still struggling with the put him away for life thing.
BTW I've moved discussion to the Mosque Shooting thread.
At what point does it become "cruel and unusual "? And is that even a a thing in NZ / Commonwealth law?
Are we punishing? Deterring? Trying to rehabilitate? Or removing a future that?
This really has me confused and conflicted.
I don't believe in life without parole as a sentence aka death by incarceration (or using old age as the executioner as one wag put it), but since it's an option, this is the the obvious case to use it.
Cruel and unusual punishment is barred by the Bill of Rights 1688.
National introduced life without parole with the 3 strikes - wasn't an option previously, although some people will probably never get parole even if they're technically eligible.
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do we think pleading guilty (and un-remorseful as far as i can tell) should change things, sure if someone is saying they're innocent...then lock them up and give them a chance to appeal and prove it....but if he says he did it and he's not judged to be mentally unfit....then doesn't that take the "people make mistakes" off the table?
the next guy to do something similar (god forbid) still has the chance to plead not guilty if he'd rather end up in jail
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@Kiwiwomble yeah I think I heard a 25% 'discount' due to a guilty plea, in this case, his guilt was never in question, so that aspect should be removed, it should be about keeping him locked away as long as NZ Law allows.
Christchurch Gunman in Mosque