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@gibbonrib said in Aussie Politics:
I guess a lot depends on where you get your news from.
If you just read that PVO piece, and others like it, you could be forgiven for thinking that there is a trial by media, lynch mob mentality going on. I think that's horseshit. I haven't seen any article in any news source saying he's guilty, or otherwise attacking him. It's all been pretty factual and professional. There's probably people talking shit on Twitter, but that's hardly new.
That's disingenuous - you don't need to allege quilt, just merely ensure the allegation keeps getting raised.
Can't read PVO's full article (firewall), but from that section it is very clearly pushing a pro-CP agenda. Why are the alleged victim's friends "random"? If they've not been in contact with with her for 30 years is their credibility diminished? Why is it relevant that her parents didn't want this to be public?
Here's the article:
The way the allegations against Attorney-General Christian Porter crescendoed this week was utterly extraordinary. The denial of natural justice; the trial by media; the lost presumption of innocence; the mob mentality of convicting someone whom police didn’t even charge with a crime — I have never seen anything like it in Australian politics. But it is also important to note that the mood that precipitated the unedifying pile-on speaks to genuine and understandable angst about a criminal justice system that has let women down, sexual assault survivors in particular. Conviction rates are disproportionately low compared with other crimes. People, women in particular, have had enough. Change is necessary; men need to understand that and pay more than just lip service to the groundswell of support for action. Nonetheless, it is vital when seeking to overthrow tyranny that those who start with good intentions don’t themselves resort to tyranny or be used by those without good intentions in the first place. That may sound melodramatic, but in the case of Porter we have borne witness to something that hurts our institutions, our democracy, our standards of journalism and even perhaps the cause of better justice for sexual assault victims. I don’t know any more than anyone else whether what was alleged to have happened back in 1988, when a 16-year-old girl and a 17-year-old boy attended a debating tournament, occurred. But I do know that whether Porter is guilty or innocent, the way it played out publicly could happen to anyone and that should concern everyone. The trite bullshit that an innocent person has nothing to fear is rubbish. Read nearly any history book to understand why. Porter has never been contacted by police. He hasn’t seen the so-called dossier prepared anonymously by the alleged victim’s friends. Neither have most of us. Selected materials from the accuser have been selectively leaked to selected personnel. Then when the time came for one journalist to publish the accusations, they were never put to the person they were being levelled against, according to Porter, which to my knowledge has not been contradicted. That is extraordinary. That the initial publishing of the allegations was anonymous doesn’t make this failure any better. It precipitated a pile-on and a witch-hunt. It put the entire Morrison cabinet under a cloud. In short, it released the hounds. We have heard from a random collection of the alleged victim’s friends, most of whom lost contact with her for most if not all of the past 30 years. We have not heard from her parents, who according to their daughter’s own writings and recordings — none of which were contemporaneous to the alleged crime, by the way — questioned her claims and didn’t want the issue to go public. I can only imagine their trauma at losing a child before also having to endure this. She, according to what has been released, had deep psychological issues. But we don’t know, of course, whether they were caused by a traumatic event or her reported bipolar disorder, of which delusions are a possible symptom. Yet friends who knew her as a 16-year-old, but not for the following 30 years, are sure. So the parents who weren’t so sure, and presumably have lived through their daughter’s difficult life, are ignored, as are their wishes for privacy. I find that extraordinary. One fact that isn’t in dispute but does seem to get breezed over lightly is that the alleged victim withdrew her complaint. She did so one day before taking her own life. People will make their own assessments about what may have motivated her to do so, but the bottom line is that none of us will ever know. She withdrew the complaint. Scott Morrison has said that there won’t be an independent inquiry into what happened. I disagree with this. We should get line of sight on these anonymous friends and their exchanges with journalists, seeking to bring this issue into full view. An inquiry with all the powers to compel witnesses and access electronic communications should happen in this matter. A chance to interview the alleged victim’s psychiatrists to paint an accurate picture of her mental health. The fact the family released a statement on Thursday indicating they would welcome an inquiry only adds to the value of having one. The irony is not lost on me that Porter is part of a government that denies refugee rights, used robodebt to take away the presumption of innocence for welfare recipients and fell in line behind a Prime Minister who used the floor of parliament to summarily stand down Australia Post chief executive Christine Holgate on spurious grounds. I have railed against the Coalition on each one of these fronts. But its failures to observe proper processes are no excuse for others to do the same, and in a most extreme and egregious way. As Porter said at his media conference on Wednesday: no one is beyond an allegation. That is why allegations that were never put to him before being published, that didn’t lead to charges or even a police interview for him, allegations the accuser ultimately withdrew, weren’t sufficient for him to get sacked. Were that to happen then anyone could weaponise allegations to remove any politician, or indeed anyone else, with any degree of legitimacy. Yes, I have known Porter for more than 20 years. Unlike many others reporting on this sad saga with close links and friendships with the alleged victim, I have been open about that. However, what I think about Porter’s guilt or innocence on this matter became of no consequence once it played out the way it did when the allegations became public. Which is why this is a matter for all of us. Self-interest should kick in because any one of us would want procedural fairness, which has been absolutely denied to Porter with the public tarring and feathering he has endured. I know some of the people who have targeted him: ideological opponents who have disliked him since the moment they met him; people for whom ends justify means. No doubt Porter made it easier for them to dislike him with some of his antics. Evidence could emerge tomorrow locking in Porter’s guilt for the alleged crime all those years ago and it wouldn’t change the fact that what has transpired in terms of denials of basic rights under our democratic and legal systems has been chilling and utterly disgraceful.
This just looks like low quality, agenda driven journalism. "Selected materials from the accuser have been selectively leaked to selected personnel" sounds very sinister. But it just means they put some information in a letter and sent it to some people.
Why would you only send the worst?
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@antipodean said in Aussie Politics:
Why would you only send the worst?
I didn't, I just read the two paragraphs that you posted and quoted from that.
Thanks for posting the full article, I will read it now
Edit: or did you mean why would the accusers only send the worst in the letter?
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And here is the article that Porter is claiming defamed him:
I know nothing about defamation law, so no idea if his case has any chance of success. But from a layman's point of view, I don't see anything in here that should be illegal. It doesn't identify him, doesn't make any accusations or cast any aspersions. Seems like a fairly straight reporting of the facts of the case.
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@gibbonrib said in Aussie Politics:
@antipodean said in Aussie Politics:
Why would you only send the worst?
I didn't, I just read the two paragraphs that you posted and quoted from that.
Thanks for posting the full article, I will read it now
Edit: or did you mean why would the accusers only send the worst in the letter?
The latter. The allegation is they've selectively presented information. A case made here: https://www.theaustralian.com.au/inquirer/christian-porter-rape-allegations-kates-dossier-of-tragedy/news-story/3e48224a9a5f3a16b4d75510607ec272
It is unfortunate that the Prime Minister chose not to read the dossier compiled by Kate, the woman who alleged Christian Porter raped her 33 years ago when she was 16 and he was 17. The dossier was sent anonymously to Scott Morrison, Penny Wong and Sarah Hanson-Young by the woman’s friends after she took her own life in June 2020.
It is hard to read. But had Morrison bothered to read Kate’s statement before listening to the Attorney-General’s version of events, his decision to reject calls for an inquiry would have been better informed.
No one can claim to know what happened in the early hours of January 10, 1988, between Kate and Porter. Their accounts are diametrically opposed. But what is clear is that Kate’s friends released this information into the public realm, and the media, especially the ABC, has chosen to reproduce only parts of Kate’s statement that serve their pursuit of Porter, even after she told police she wanted to withdraw her complaint and the decision of NSW Police not to pursue the matter.
Kate, by all reports, was a champion debater. A smart, witty, brilliant young student. As a member of the Australian schools debating team two years in a row, high expectations surrounded her. There was talk among her friends she could become Australia’s first female prime minister. Instead, Kate’s life spiralled downward. She suffered from long bouts of serious mental illness.
Her life and death are a tragedy. Especially for her family, who have expressed concerns that, perhaps due to mental illness that included a bipolar disorder, she may have imagined the rape. They didn’t want Kate’s claims to go public.
And no one wants to add to their grief. Or the grief of former high school friends, though many of them appear to have lost contact with Kate for most if not all of the past 30 years.
But the vicious, often hysterical and emotional public sham trial of Porter ignores why we have a legal system — to test very serious accusations such as rape by amassing evidence to determine guilt beyond reasonable doubt.
We detail below far more material than has been disclosed to date by any other media organisation, despite many inside the political and media beltway having access to it. Now readers can judge for themselves.
We lay out below the four sources of material compiled by Kate in the order in which they were created. The dossier says: “To be submitted to the South Australian Police 28 February 2020.” It was forwarded to the AFP by those who received it.
None of the material in the dossier is contemporaneous to the alleged crime. This is an important point. The first three sources — Kate’s Princeton Diary, Kate’s “F..k it” note, and 11 ripped pages from Kate’s “Food Journal” — were written one to four years after the alleged assault.
The other part of the dossier is Kate’s typed statement. It was compiled, along with her transcriptions of the first three sources, after she attended sessions with Sydney psychologist Katie Thorncraft in September 2019 and Adelaide psychiatrist Dr Tony Davis in late 2019.
Princeton Diary
Kate says her Princeton Diary was “created circa 1989” and that photos of four pages were taken on February 19, 2020, and transcribed November 25-26, 2019. Each page of the “scratched entries” is covered over in thick blue highlighter pen, making it hard to decipher. The reference to “James” is James Hooke, her former teenage boyfriend.
“How can I tell this tale? Who to? James – maybe [?] him – if we ever get back together, I’ll have to tell him [.] Before then or After–1 way or the other??? But we won’t [??? ..] together. I’m too damaged [?] might [?] [final line] F..K IT WHY
“What did I do? Porter will say I led him on — did I? I said NO — I said NO. To the blow job. He never asked about the rest. Just did it & took what he wanted. Me. My virginity & my voice. What a Prick.”
“F..k It” NoteWhat follows is what Kate calls the “F..k It” note that she says was written in January 1991 and included in her dossier for police after she found it in mid-2019. The description of the note says: “transcribed by me in July 2020”. Kate took her own life prior to that, in June of 2020. Hence the below transcriptions were either done by someone else, or, if done by Kate, the date is incorrect. It notes that some of the original pencilled words were traced over in black pen before then being rubbed out.
Below are the horizontal words in the middle of the page transcribed from the original 1991 document:
“I don’t know & I can’t explain it to you even if I did know. It’s either as simple & facile an explanation as ‘I was drunk’ or I can go into my psyche up to the elbows & drag out some reason but either way & [?] I’ll never explain it to you properly. You’ll have to do that for yourself.”
Below are the words that formed concentric circles transcribed from the 1991 document:
“HE LOVED ME? IN AUG 88. IN JAN 89. HE MUST HAVE. HE SAID SO. HE MEANT IT. I FELT IT. I KNOW HIM. HE KNEW ME. I CAN TRUST HIM. HE’D HELP ME. HE WOULD — I JUST NEED 2 LET GO. S/1 ELSE NEEDS TO KNOW. IT CAN BE HIM. SO WHAT IF HE RECOILS? THEN, @ L, I’D KNO. IT WILL B A 1St STEP ON THE NEC PATH. NECESSE EST. MAYBE WRITE TO HIM IN LATIN? MAKE IT A GAME, A PUZZLE. HE MIGHT EVEN APPRECIATE THE CHANCE TO USE HIS BRAIN ON SOMETHING OTHER THAN SKIRT CHASING. HE’S SMARTER THAN HE GIVES H’SELF CREDIT 4. NOT QUITE AS CLEVER AS YOU BUT THAT’S GOOD. HE WON’T CUT H’SELF ON HIS MIND’S RAZOR SHARP EDGES à THE WAY YOU DO ON YRS. F..K IT WOMAN. JUST TELL HIM. HE WAS GOOD 2 U. SO WHAT ABOUT the kid? THERE’S STILL TIME 4 THAT – 1 DAY – THAT’S WAT HE PROMISED U @ ANU. GET THRO’ UNI, GROW UP – THEN SEE IF IT STILL BURNS. IT NOT, HE’LL B A GOOD FRIEND & THAT’S BETTER THAN A LOVER & LONGER-LASTING. “1 of the GIRLS”. HE MIGHT EVEN LIKE THAT! J YOU GAVE HIM HEAD OFTEN ENOUGH (DID HE EVER REPAY that fave? Don’t think so ... Little shit...ASK 4 his help or you’ll end up in a ditch s/where. He hates Xtn already – no? MORE REASON 2 REACH 4 HIM. J. HELP ME Honey.”
Food Journal
Kate says she took photos on February 19, 2020, of 11 pages from what she called her Food Journal that she kept in 1990-1991 or “possibly in 1992”. There is one single word on each page:
“I [o?] [n?] don’t want to
Xtian [Christian] [.]
Pl[ea]se do not take me [.]
88 [1988] I [January, the first month indicated by my using a lower case Roman-numeral].”
Kate’s typed statement written more than
30 years laterHaving collected the above material in mid to late 2019, Kate typed a statement to be submitted to the police.
Before setting out her allegations, Kate writes: “I have always remembered these things. I had a better understanding of these memories, and only really understood them, once my Sydney-based psychologist Katie Thorncraft referred me to The Body Keeps Score: Brain, Mind and Body in the Healing of Trauma (Van Der Kolk.) … our bodies will store traumatic events and only allow them to resurface when our minds are able to examine them.”
As Richard Guilliatt reported last week in The Weekend Australian: “This theory is controversial because it harks back to the recovered memory phenomenon of the 1980s and 90s, which caused an epidemic of false and unreliable recollections of sexual abuse.”
Kate’s claims are as follows:
“Given the surreal quality to my memories of his raping me, and the dissociative states that I have (and still) experience, I suspect that CP put some sort of date-rape style drug into my drink” when they were at the Hard Rock Cafe in Kings Cross.
“CP walked me back to my room in Women’s College … CP propositioned me, asking ‘How about a pearl necklace?’, I agreed to do this.
“He then forced me to perform oral sex on him ... he had his hands around my throat, I thought that he would choke me to death ... I remember that I vomited ...”
Kate then describes a ritualised form of behaviour by the 17-year-old Porter: “CP then took me from my bedroom to a bathroom … and made me have a bath or a shower.”
Porter “undressed me”, “brushed my teeth”, wrote ‘Christian Porter was ’ere Jan 88’ in the steam on the mirror”, “soaped and washed me with a flannel”, “washed and conditioned my hair”, “shaved my legs and under my arms” and “spent a lot of time washing my anus”…“he was a bit impatient but still shampooed my hair twice”.
“CP took me back to my room and dressed me in my nightie and a clean pair of underpants”… “we got into my bed together and I fell asleep”. “I woke up to CP anally raping me” noting “he did not use a lubricant or a condom” and it was “extremely painful”.
The next day, Kate writes, “All I could cope with, as I remembered parts of the night before, gingerly, was the idea that things had gone ‘a bit too far’ with CP, the previous evening. But it was ok, I reassured myself, because we were going to get married — one day. CP had implied this to me on the previous afternoon, when I was ironing his shirt.”
After the alleged rape, Kate writes about “the last time I saw CP”. She had dinner with Porter, in Perth, almost six years later where, she says, Porter propositioned her, but nothing happened.
The question readers might now want to ask themselves is does Kate’s dossier raise doubts about what has been alleged against Porter?
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@antipodean Man, that was a tough read.
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Ok, I've read PVO's article (not the second one you posted yet). Gives more context. I agree with some things he's said, particularly that an enquiry would be a good idea for all concerned (this argument that it would undermine the rule of law sounds like a furphy). And he makes good points about the way women are let down by the police & justice system, and that CP is no fan of the rule of law whereas powerful people are on the receiving end. But there are plenty of other examples in there that I think betray his agenda.
"Pile-on", "witch hunt", "release the hounds", "public tarring and feathering", "denial of natural justice", "the trial by media", "mob mentality" are all emotive terms meant to portray a hysterical mob baying for blood. I just haven't seen that. The protests yesterday, and the news coverage of them, are not about CP, or even Brittany Higgins, they're about thousands of people who have experienced sexual violence, and the institutions that often protect the perps over the victims.
Morrison's dismissive having of this has exacerbated the perception that he doesn't care (or at least not until Jenny explains it to him in terms of his family members).
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@gibbonrib said in Aussie Politics:
And here is the article that Porter is claiming defamed him:
I know nothing about defamation law, so no idea if his case has any chance of success. But from a layman's point of view, I don't see anything in here that should be illegal. It doesn't identify him, doesn't make any accusations or cast any aspersions. Seems like a fairly straight reporting of the facts of the case.
Male
Cabinet Minister
Early in 1998
SydneyYou could get there with the appropriate "Guess Who" panel of Australian Politicians I guess.
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@nta 22 members of cabinet, 6 of who are women. I don't think the year or visiting Sydney rules anyone out. So that leaves 14 (or maybe 13, if you exclude the PM).
I can't see how you could narrow it down any more from that ABC article. Plenty of other sources where you could find out, but you've got to wonder why Porter is suing the ABC rather than any of the other dozens of media outlets that reported on it.
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@gibbonrib said in Aussie Politics:
you've got to wonder why Porter is suing the ABC rather than any of the other dozens of media outlets that reported on it.
I don't wonder about that at all
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@gibbonrib said in Aussie Politics:
a
Hey man. Will get back to you on this topic.
Post was deliberately provocative so when I have time, inclination and sobriety all at once I'll discuss this and some subsequent topics on this thread, and try and make sense.
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@booboo said in Aussie Politics:
@gibbonrib said in Aussie Politics:
a
Hey man. Will get back to you on this topic.
Post was deliberately provocative so when I have time, inclination and sobriety all at once I'll discuss this and some subsequent topics on this thread, and try and make sense.
Cool, I'll try to get sober in time
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@antipodean said in Aussie Politics:
@gibbonrib said in Aussie Politics:
It is certainly a very difficult, complex, murky situation. There is a balance to be struck between the public interest of a very serious allegation against a very senior and powerful individual, and his right to a presumption of innocence.
We don't want innocent people to have their careers and families destroyed by false accusations, but equally we don't want people to get away with raping and abusing women with impunity.
Which of those two things do you think is a bigger problem at the moment?
Well part of the problem as I understand the reporting is that she consented to a sex act and then others were performed. The law at the time didn't account for recklessness (https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/html/inforce/1991-03-17/act-1900-040#sec.61R), so the accused has to know in 1988 that consent has been withdrawn. So evidence would need to be provided that was the case. We can't ask the accuser who withdrew the complaint, we can't look at the non-existent record of interview so what do we have other than the printed accusation?
The mere idea that you can be strung up like this in the modern era and be subjected to a trial by media is repugnant to the concept of rule by law.
She can't have consented to a sex act that Porter said never happened?
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I can't find it now but someone is saying PVO is no friend of the government, did anyone mention here he is a personal friend of Porter? The guy who introduced his future wife to him?
https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/national/2021/03/14/pms-inaction-porter/
I have not been following the Project but apparently there has been tension there over this - that PVO did not quite mention this alleged connection...
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Who didn't think they are a bunch of piston wristed gibbons ...
Edit: I preferred willis for piston wristed gibbon
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well, ya know, i for one am just so stoked that Qld's politicians will get a fat pay rise over the nest year.
2% in September
another 2.25% in March
AND another 2% next SeptemberWell done them, they are doing such a great job. And definitely deserve that extra money
What's that Mariner? You can't remember the last time your pay increased? You're laying off staff and cutting hours in several business units? Ah well, sucks to not have a Government job i guess aye? Just make sure you keep paying your payroll tax, somethings got to fund Ana's lifestyle.
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