NZ cricket 2021
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@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
Seems obvious but isn’t Conway more of a first drop ? Once Rossco inevitably goes it seems obvious he’ll jump right in there at 4/5 ( depending on Nicholls )
Well he won't get Kane's spot and historically opener and first drop have been much the same for us, although that has improved. He does seem to have the temperament and the skill set so worth a try? We always seem to struggle to find openers and have to fit someone in.
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@snowy said in NZ cricket 2021:
@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
Seems obvious but isn’t Conway more of a first drop ? Once Rossco inevitably goes it seems obvious he’ll jump right in there at 4/5 ( depending on Nicholls )
Well he won't get Kane's spot and historically opener and first drop have been much the same for us, although that has improved. He does seem to have the temperament and the skill set so worth a try? We always seem to struggle to find openers and have to fit someone in.
Justin Langer did ok when he was thrust into the role to be fair.
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I used to be very strongly of the view that test opener was a specialist position, but I think it's more that an opener has a specific set of skills that not every batsman needs to be successful. I think the most important skill for an opener is judging your off stump and leaving well. Conway looks like he does that well so I think he'd be a solid candidate to open. I'd definitely favour him going straight in as an opener than fiddling around with the middle order and pushing someone else to open. There are a small number of guys who have opened and kept (and props to Brendan Kuruppu who I'm pretty sure managed to spend an entire test in pads) but I don't think it's a good option. I'm hoping noone suggests Conway as a keeper...
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Brilliant article on BJ
As pure keepers I guess arguments can be made for BMac, Parore or Smith but no way would I pick any of them above him.
Would any of them have made a World XI in their eras ? Smith was competing against Jeff Dujon, Alan Knott, Rod Marsh etc so no. Parore ? Fuck no.....and BMacs aura always exceeded how good he actually was.
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Absolute champion BJ. Really hope he has an awesome last 3 tests and we go out with a bang.
Post this England winter. Blundell to keeper. Ravindra to open, Conway to middle order.
I expect CdG to also retire, and this is very tough on Mitchell who loses spot in my ideal 11. Don't need a 5th seamer when playing 4 seamers.
Ravindra in first test 11 might be a bit too adventerous for current selection. But there's no real 'safe' option for the selectors. It's either Conway out of position opening or the young opener with extra burden of being the 5th bowler also. I'm very confident in both, regardless.
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Ravindra certainly hasn't dominated domestic cricket yet so not convinced he will become a key black cap.
Conway or Young will definitely be opening ahead of him.
Williamson, Taylor and Nicholls won't be moving from their spots unless it's due to injury or retirement.
Young and Conway are both actually 3's more than openers so not sure what the plan is for Taylor's retirement, will Williamson drop down one? or will Nicholls move up one?
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@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
Brilliant article on BJ
As pure keepers I guess arguments can be made for BMac, Parore or Smith but no way would I pick any of them above him.
Would any of them have made a World XI in their eras ? Smith was competing against Jeff Dujon, Alan Knott, Rod Marsh etc so no. Parore ? Fuck no.....and BMacs aura always exceeded how good he actually was.
BMac wouldn't have because of Gilchrist among others, Smith and Dujon would have been the main contenders, Parore had Healy and Andy Flower as the top contenders.
Watling has earned his plaudits though - legitimately world class.
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@dogmeat said in NZ cricket 2021:
@mn5 Smithy had only played 3 tests when Knott retired and two full seasons when Marsh did.
Yeah I'm pretty sure Smith was regarded as being right up there come the late 80s. Quality glove work, two test centuries in a time when keepers only had to be handy with the bat, and a reputation for being able to hit a long ball after he equalled a world record for runs off a test over.
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@siam said in NZ cricket 2021:
@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
no.....and BMacs aura always exceeded how good he actually was.
Not with keeping. You'd have to explain why he wasn't better than Watling.
Pre the back injuries BMac was the finest keeper I have seen. Incredible reflexes and athleticism.
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It's great to see Watling getting the accolades he deserves from cricketing world. He's truly world class, NZs best ever, and one of the finest keeper-batsmen to play the game. Despite the talent we have coming through he's going to leave a massive hole in the team.
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@no-quarter said in NZ cricket 2021:
@siam said in NZ cricket 2021:
@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
no.....and BMacs aura always exceeded how good he actually was.
Not with keeping. You'd have to explain why he wasn't better than Watling.
Pre the back injuries BMac was the finest keeper I have seen. Incredible reflexes and athleticism.
I thought he was pretty clearly a drop off from Robbie Hart (with the gloves) when he debuted and he was definitely dropping off in the two years prior to giving the gloves up. There was a period in the middle where he was very good - but it's difficult to compare the attacks he kept to (basically Vettori + a bunch of guys bowling 135km/h max) vs those keeping to genuine quicks, hooping swing bowlers or ripping leggies.
I'm inclined to say Smith was the best if only because Hadlee seems to be on speaking terms with him.
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Smith, Parore and BMac were all regarded as the world's best with the gloves at some point in their careers, but only Smith was seriously in contention for a world XI spot because the batting of the 'keepers in the 80s wasn't at the level of the 90s or later, particularly with Andy Flower and Adam Gilchrist as obvious selections ahead of Parore and BMac respectively.
That said, it's hard to analyse 'keeper stats effectively because it's so dependent on the quality of the bowling especially. Even byes per match is dependent to some extent on bowlers not bowling unkeepable non-wides. Watling has great stats but he also has kept to our best bowling attack. Still, got to catch them when they come your way.
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@godder said in NZ cricket 2021:
Smith, Parore and BMac were all regarded as the world's best with the gloves at some point in their careers, but only Smith was seriously in contention for a world XI spot because the batting of the 'keepers in the 80s wasn't at the level of the 90s or later, particularly with Andy Flower and Adam Gilchrist as obvious selections ahead of Parore and BMac respectively.
That said, it's hard to analyse 'keeper stats effectively because it's so dependent on the quality of the bowling especially. Even byes per match is dependent to some extent on bowlers not bowling unkeepable non-wides. Watling has great stats but he also has kept to our best bowling attack. Still, got to catch them when they come your way.
Yeah there’s so many intangibles with keepers. I’m sure I read there was some argument to say that the guy who DOESN’T need to make the diving catches is a better keeper purely because he had the anticipation to not need to dive ?
There’s not a huge amount of stats to say one was necessarily better than the other but batting has to come into it, these days if a guy averaging 25 is competing with a guy averaging 35 the latter will get picked almost regardless of who is the better keeper.
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Players offered Black Caps contracts for 2021-22:
Tom Blundell, Trent Boult, Devon Conway, Colin de Grandhomme, Lockie Ferguson, Martin Guptill, Matt Henry, Kyle Jamieson, Tom Latham, Daryl Mitchell, Henry Nicholls, Jimmy Neesham, Glenn Phillips, Mitchell Santner, Ish Sodhi, Tim Southee, Ross Taylor, Neil Wagner, Kane Williamson, Will Young.
In: Mitchell, Phillips
Out: Ajaz Patel, BJ Watling (retiring in June) -
@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
I’m sure I read there was some argument to say that the guy who DOESN’T need to make the diving catches is a better keeper purely because he had the anticipation to not need to dive ?
There are keepers who dive when they could have anticipated fractionally earlier. In practice at the top level though, I suspect the slip cordon's rely on the keeper diving so that they can be placed just a fraction wider.
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@rotated said in NZ cricket 2021:
@no-quarter said in NZ cricket 2021:
@siam said in NZ cricket 2021:
@mn5 said in NZ cricket 2021:
no.....and BMacs aura always exceeded how good he actually was.
Not with keeping. You'd have to explain why he wasn't better than Watling.
Pre the back injuries BMac was the finest keeper I have seen. Incredible reflexes and athleticism.
I thought he was pretty clearly a drop off from Robbie Hart (with the gloves) when he debuted and he was definitely dropping off in the two years prior to giving the gloves up. There was a period in the middle where he was very good - but it's difficult to compare the attacks he kept to (basically Vettori + a bunch of guys bowling 135km/h max) vs those keeping to genuine quicks, hooping swing bowlers or ripping leggies.
I'm inclined to say Smith was the best if only because Hadlee seems to be on speaking terms with him.
Yeah Smithy was a bit before my time so I didn't really see him keep live but he's held in extremely high regard so fair enough.
