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@nzzp said in Trans weight lifter:
It's really not Laurel's fault, though. She doesn't make the rules... She's just the visible implementation of them.
I think the rules seem badly wrong on the face of it, but also don't think she should be destroyed for it. She's just playing the game as it's defined. Kind of like maul laws in rugby, I think they're crap, but you use them until they get changed. Having a 40ish trans woman winning from nowhere is likely to be evidence the rules aren't right, but it's not Laurel's issue to deal with.
I hear you mate. It's the "up to them" principle for freedom to act anyway that's within the formal laws. My life philosophy depends on that principle.
I'd like to ask Lauren what her motivations are and how she sees her interpersonal relationships with fellow competitors. Given her obvious prowess at the sport I'd be interested to hear if she'd want to compete against men.
Sport has a socialising mechanism for blatantly lopsided contests. Generally they're discouraged and avoided.
And, while Lauren isn't to blame for the rules, she sure is benefiting a lot from them. She's not responsible for the rules but she has put herself in a position to have her character judged.
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@nzzp I agree she is just playing by the rules but the rules stink and she knows it. She knows she has an advantage. If I was competing against her I would boycott or go to another weight class. Getting a gold without opposition would be hollow. For most of us her getting one with competition will be hollow as well. She is not being destroyed for who she is but because of what she is doing. We still have an option of making a judgement of what is right or wrong, right? This problem won’t go away though. More and more trans will do this for their own egos. It is happening in the States and some states have banned trans from women’s sports at the collegiate level. Hopefully science will win out in the courts and not social science as someone mentioned.
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I'm on the fence here, partly because I know less about this than most of you, partly because I don't see a black-white solution, but would it be possible to have a trans/inter division or would that be a. too small or b. too discriminatory?
Given that some peope are actually naturally between from birth... -
A guy I follow on YT who is a weightlifter etc. He defers on the hard science to another good content creator. The bottom line appears to be the current Olympic rules on the allowed levels etc will see Hubbard competing with an advantage.
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@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
@gt12 just disagree whether she is allowed to or not.
I actually think there was a missing word in my post - I don't think she should be allowed to compete, but since she is allowed to compete I wish her the best
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@nostrildamus said in Trans weight lifter:
I'm on the fence here, partly because I know less about this than most of you, partly because I don't see a black-white solution, but would it be possible to have a trans/inter division or would that be a. too small or b. too discriminatory?
Given that some peope are actually naturally between from birth...I think that is the solution, but then trans women aren't real women.
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I think its ludicrous. It's very clear there is is advantage there, and by allowing it, we destroy years of building up women's sport.
We bend over backwards to accommodate trans folk these days, and some of that is necessary. But they have to accept that they just can't have everything. Want to be respected and not discriminated against? Sure. Want to piss in both toilets? We'll think about it. Want to compete against chicks in sport when you used to be a bloke? Sorry.
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@nzzp said in Trans weight lifter:
It's really not Laurel's fault, though. She doesn't make the rules... She's just the visible implementation of them.
I think the rules seem badly wrong on the face of it, but also don't think she should be destroyed for it. She's just playing the game as it's defined. Kind of like maul laws in rugby, I think they're crap, but you use them until they get changed. Having a 40ish trans woman winning from nowhere is likely to be evidence the rules aren't right, but it's not Laurel's issue to deal with.
I dont really agree. She's an adult capable of making grown up decisions. She's trying to cheat female athletes out of some medals. Its pathetic, I have a bit of pity for he that she can't see how much she is stinking out the joint.
My empathy for people with non conformist gender norms doesnt go this far.
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@nzzp said in Trans weight lifter:
@rapido I get your perspective, but ultimately it's the rules but the athlete that are the problem. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree
I must admit to being ignorant as to Hubbard's particular case. I don't know if Laurel is an advocate or simply wants to compete in a sport Laurel loves at the highest level permissible. Hate the game, not the player type situation.
I don't like seeing people discriminated against nor denied agency. But the simple fact remains that transwomen have an unfair advantage against women. We don't permit doping so why would we permit participants who are restricted to levels other participants can only achieve by doping?
The solution as i see it is to have three categories of sport:
- Open.
- Females.
- Handicapped.
You play in the highest level you're capable of which in real terms means that Open is elite men. Can't get to that level and you don't have a disability or you're not female? Bad luck.
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@antipodean said in Trans weight lifter:
I don't like seeing people discriminated against nor denied agency. But the simple fact remains that transwomen have an unfair advantage against women. We don't permit doping so why would we permit participants who are restricted to levels other participants can only achieve by doping?
I agree with this, and it appears trans have an (in my lay opinion) an unfair advantage. That issue lies with the rules, not with Laurel. She was a weightlifter before changing, so still doing it. Ironically, the more success she has, the more it will provide evidence that the rules are not right.
In the spirit of due diligence, I looked up weight divisions for women and men weightlifters. Superheavey for men is 110 or so; for women it's 87kg. There are almost no women who weigh in at 110 kg ... so men with that frame who transition must have a huge advantage. Anyway, this is a super touchy subject, so I'll leave it there for now
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@nzzp said in Trans weight lifter:
@antipodean said in Trans weight lifter:
I don't like seeing people discriminated against nor denied agency. But the simple fact remains that transwomen have an unfair advantage against women. We don't permit doping so why would we permit participants who are restricted to levels other participants can only achieve by doping?
I agree with this, and it appears trans have an (in my lay opinion) an unfair advantage. That issue lies with the rules, not with Laurel. She was a weightlifter before changing, so still doing it. Ironically, the more success she has, the more it will provide evidence that the rules are not right.
In the spirit of due diligence, I looked up weight divisions for women and men weightlifters. Superheavey for men is 110 or so; for women it's 87kg. There are almost no women who weigh in at 110 kg ... so men with that frame who transition must have a huge advantage. Anyway, this is a super touchy subject, so I'll leave it there for now
I don't think there is a single poster on this site who agrees with the Olympic committee ruling allowing her to compete.
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@nostrildamus why not have their own competition? The physical differences are stark. They are not women physically even with the introduction of hormones. Whether they believe they are female or not their bodies don’t match their desired emotional state. I don’t think we have to defer to experts all the time. Common sense and logic often trumps these fools.
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@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
@nostrildamus why not have their own competition? The physical differences are stark. They are not women physically even with the introduction of hormones. Whether they believe they are female or not their bodies don’t match their desired emotional state. I don’t think we have to defer to experts all the time. Common sense and logic often trumps these fools.
Define experts.
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@booboo said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
@nostrildamus why not have their own competition? The physical differences are stark. They are not women physically even with the introduction of hormones. Whether they believe they are female or not their bodies don’t match their desired emotional state. I don’t think we have to defer to experts all the time. Common sense and logic often trumps these fools.
Define experts.
Expert - one who opines with no basis on the Fern
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@voodoo said in Trans weight lifter:
@booboo said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
@nostrildamus why not have their own competition? The physical differences are stark. They are not women physically even with the introduction of hormones. Whether they believe they are female or not their bodies don’t match their desired emotional state. I don’t think we have to defer to experts all the time. Common sense and logic often trumps these fools.
Define experts.
Expert - one who opines with no basis on the Fern
In other words someone with rocks where their brain should be and who seriously thinks Hubbard competing is ok.
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@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
@nostrildamus why not have their own competition? The physical differences are stark. They are not women physically even with the introduction of hormones. Whether they believe they are female or not their bodies don’t match their desired emotional state. I don’t think we have to defer to experts all the time. Common sense and logic often trumps these fools.
That’s simply never going to happen. The trans advocacy movement is very powerful right now and they’ve made it clear that their goal is to ensure there is no distinction at all between women and transwomen. The endgame must be that when anyone says the word woman in any circumstance or situation they are including people who were born female, people who have transitioned from male to female, and anybody who identifies as a woman. When they say transwomen are women, they mean exactly that.
Any compromise such as you’d have suggested, however sensible, must fail because it would run counter to the goal of complete 100% parity.
I think anyone who believes that trans activism won’t sacrifice women’s sport in its entirety to achieve their version of parity has really misread the politics at play here.
Transgender debate, in sport, in general