Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..)
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Mo'unga seems liberated by the confidence of being told that he is the undisputed10 rather than all this pussy fotting about trying to cram all the glittering guys into the same side.
I totally agree with the sentiments expressed. Nice result saturday but our balance in the loosies and from 12 out is still fucked.
Ruby is effectively a simple game and that's the way the best teams play it.
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@dogmeat said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Mo'unga seems liberated by the confidence of being told that he is the undisputed10 rather than all this pussy fotting about trying to cram all the glittering guys into the same side.
I totally agree with the sentiments expressed. Nice result saturday but our balance in the loosies and from 12 out is still fucked.
Ruby is effectively a simple game and that's the way the best teams play it.
Yes I think he played well, I do question whether he should hide in the backline though.
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@nostrildamus said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@dogmeat said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Mo'unga seems liberated by the confidence of being told that he is the undisputed10 rather than all this pussy fotting about trying to cram all the glittering guys into the same side.
I totally agree with the sentiments expressed. Nice result saturday but our balance in the loosies and from 12 out is still fucked.
Ruby is effectively a simple game and that's the way the best teams play it.
Yes I think he played well, I do question whether he should hide in the backline though.
I hate watching AB teams do that.
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I don't think players are actually hidden out in backline, I have impression that most coaches are using their 10s as second 15 for opposition kicks, and so put 10 out on wing so he can more available at back. RMo seems to be a pretty handy tackler etc. If you keep an eye on a lot of teams in defence that is what they do, don't think it hiding but keeping attacking players available to set up counter attack or to kick back.
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@dan54 said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
I don't think players are actually hidden out in backline, I have impression that most coaches are using their 10s as second 15 for opposition kicks, and so put 10 out on wing so he can more available at back. RMo seems to be a pretty handy tackler etc. If you keep an eye on a lot of teams in defence that is what they do, don't think it hiding but keeping attacking players available to set up counter attack or to kick back.
I hate to say it, but I actually agree with you on this one.
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For all my criticism of RM being hidden on the wing, it was interesting to note that he was being put at centre defending from set piece (DH was at 10, RI, then RM) and when BB came on they did the same with him.
They weren't doing that in the first test were they? Was that the reponse for RM's bad miss from the lineout in Bled 1?
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@kirwan said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
For all my criticism of RM being hidden on the wing, it was interesting to note that he was being put at centre defending from set piece (DH was at 10, RI, then RM) and when BB came on they did the same with him.
They weren't doing that in the first test were they? Was that the reponse for RM's bad miss from the lineout in Bled 1?
I don’t think it was a bad missed tackle at that lineout, more that he misread it by going for an intercept but was caught out. That was a high risk option.
In relation to the broader point about our setup, it has been a feature for some time, probably half way during the Carter era, that we have dropped our 1st 5 back in hope to get 4 of our best attacking players (1st 5, fullback and wings) back behind the ball to attack with. Been a pretty successful ploy and one that other teams for the most part have struggled to emulate.
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Agree with this long winded post with regards to lack of balance, sectorial pig-rootery and guys being shoe-horned in.
I think we all know I believe Savea is our best 7, including when Cane is available. He's certainly not an international 8. And if you believe he's not good enough defensively at 7 then he's far from an 8, and probably not even in the 23. But I'd have him as my 7 as I value highly his skills over the ball and as a link man. I don't see Papali'i as a 7 any more than the likes of Blackadder, but at the moment he's a fantastic utility loosie.
At 8 I'm starting to like Jacobson, but I also think they should invest in Papali'i getting a crack there. I've gone off Sotutu and was never much of a Ioane fan although credit to his improvement at 6. I'll be interested to see if Grace comes back strongly next year with some time off now to build into it. But Jacobson appears our best option here.
At 6 I think Frizzel has had plenty of opportunity and hasnt converted. I had high hopes for Fifita but he's now goooone. I'm also keener on Papali'i here than 7. Ioane seems to have done enough to hold this spot though and offers the requisite height which few if any other candidates have. Blackadder is another who can be considered here.
So my current trio is Jasobsen, Savea and Ioane with Papali'i off the bench.
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@shark said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
I think we all know I believe Savea is our best 7, including when Cane is available.
Doing what though? Offensively and over the ball, probably. But defensively, Cane and Papali'i are much better. So much depends on the other two, and the game plan you want to play.
If you have tall defensive 6+8, then Savea's the man. If not, then you'd be looking at Cane or Dalton.
Separately, I've been very impressed with Papali'i - this year. He's quietly put together an absolutely storming season and slotted well into the Black jersey
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@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@shark said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
I think we all know I believe Savea is our best 7, including when Cane is available.
Doing what though? Offensively and over the ball, probably. But defensively, Cane and Papali'i are much better. So much depends on the other two, and the game plan you want to play.
If you have tall defensive 6+8, then Savea's the man. If not, then you'd be looking at Cane or Dalton.
Separately, I've been very impressed with Papali'i - this year. He's quietly put together an absolutely storming season and slotted well into the Black jersey
You shouldn't have to rely on the 7 for defense to the same extent as the 6 and 8, for whom it's an absolute pre requisite. If we're happy with Ioane's offering at 6 and Jacobsen's at 8 then Savea slots in perfectly at 7. If we're not happy with the D from the 6 and 8 then we need to review our options there and Papali'i becomes a real possibility.
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It is interesting at 8, and I'm not sure everyone here thinks Savea is ahead of Cane at 7 or that doesnt suit Paps (I think he had a good and so-so game there and I'd say Savea and Cane suit different types of 7 play) but anyway I'd sugget our main problem isn't really the loosies but the selection, management, and depth of the tight forwards.
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We don’t want to be debating about the now but more about the goal which I assume would be 2023. Ask ourselves what sort of players will Ardie and Cane be in two years as opposed to Paps and Jacobson. Hopefully we will get to play the Boks this year to see where we are really at. Two years out from the WC we are rapidly running out of time to blood new players in the backline so apart from DMac who is off to Japan would suggest the current backline is probably it just not sure in what combinations. Not even sure Goodhue will be back in the mix but hope so
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@dmx said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
How about we change nothing and tell Ardie to have 7 on his jersey , Ioane 8 and Papali'i 6 and I am guessing that would make everyone happy.
Ioane 6, Cane/Papali'i 7, Jacobson 8, Savea 20.
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@shark said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Agree with this long winded post with regards to lack of balance, sectorial pig-rootery and guys being shoe-horned in.
I think we all know I believe Savea is our best 7, including when Cane is available. He's certainly not an international 8. And if you believe he's not good enough defensively at 7 then he's far from an 8, and probably not even in the 23. But I'd have him as my 7 as I value highly his skills over the ball and as a link man. I don't see Papali'i as a 7 any more than the likes of Blackadder, but at the moment he's a fantastic utility loosie.
At 8 I'm starting to like Jacobson, but I also think they should invest in Papali'i getting a crack there. I've gone off Sotutu and was never much of a Ioane fan although credit to his improvement at 6. I'll be interested to see if Grace comes back strongly next year with some time off now to build into it. But Jacobson appears our best option here.
At 6 I think Frizzel has had plenty of opportunity and hasnt converted. I had high hopes for Fifita but he's now goooone. I'm also keener on Papali'i here than 7. Ioane seems to have done enough to hold this spot though and offers the requisite height which few if any other candidates have. Blackadder is another who can be considered here.
So my current trio is Jasobsen, Savea and Ioane with Papali'i off the bench.
At Super rugby level Sotutu was a stand out 8. He has an X factor, which I can’t say about Jacobson, and in style is a little like a bigger version of Ardie.
I hope they persevere with him at test level, because he has the potential to become a world class 8.
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@pakman said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@shark said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Agree with this long winded post with regards to lack of balance, sectorial pig-rootery and guys being shoe-horned in.
I think we all know I believe Savea is our best 7, including when Cane is available. He's certainly not an international 8. And if you believe he's not good enough defensively at 7 then he's far from an 8, and probably not even in the 23. But I'd have him as my 7 as I value highly his skills over the ball and as a link man. I don't see Papali'i as a 7 any more than the likes of Blackadder, but at the moment he's a fantastic utility loosie.
At 8 I'm starting to like Jacobson, but I also think they should invest in Papali'i getting a crack there. I've gone off Sotutu and was never much of a Ioane fan although credit to his improvement at 6. I'll be interested to see if Grace comes back strongly next year with some time off now to build into it. But Jacobson appears our best option here.
At 6 I think Frizzel has had plenty of opportunity and hasnt converted. I had high hopes for Fifita but he's now goooone. I'm also keener on Papali'i here than 7. Ioane seems to have done enough to hold this spot though and offers the requisite height which few if any other candidates have. Blackadder is another who can be considered here.
So my current trio is Jasobsen, Savea and Ioane with Papali'i off the bench.
At Super rugby level Sotutu was a stand out 8. He has an X factor, which I can’t say about Jacobson, and in style is a little like a bigger version of Ardie.
I hope they persevere with him at test level, because he has the potential to become a world class 8.
Jacobsen has very similar attributes to Papali'i. Fast, strong in contact, always around the ball and he's a natural leader, being a former 2017 NZ-U20 captain.
He seems made for test rugby, tireless worker & doesn't ever go missing in matches unlike Sotutu.
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Jacobson! (Swedish spelling rather than Danish -sen).
Jacobson Paps and Ioane can all (arguably) 6/8. Not sure you want to play Ioane at 8 as he has done well at 6. I like Sotutu as well but he didn't play that well recently. I'm guessing we should bracket players starting at 7, 8 then 6:
7 Cane Ardie Paps (seems the recent order, perhaps Paps challenged that but his last game wasn't perfect)
8 Ardie (coach rating not mine) Jacobson Sotutu (possibly Ioane or someone else)
6 Ioane Frizell [?] Jacobson possibly Paps or Blackadder and Cane or maybe Ardie? [logjam]
