Black Caps - Bangladesh tour 2021
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@canefan said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@canefan said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@nzzp said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You're definition of legend is obviously a lot broader and more generous than mine.
His mullet was sensational, and gets legendary status
Seriously, though, he was a key cog in our team for a few years. Did plenty, but not sure was a 'legend'.
Well he was an automatic pick in the test team ( where his numbers are still good, quite Stokes like in fact although he’s overrated ) but then again his competition for that All Rounder spot was Santner or Mitchell….both kinda uninspiring alternatives.
With who we have as cattle in the most important format of all it wouldn’t be fair on other teams if Paddles, Cainsy or Dan the Man played in this era.
Without actually checking, I'd suspect his numbers were much better in NZ than abroad. As for his place in the test team, he was very lucky to make the WTC finals team, IMHO Patel deserved it more; he can hold a bat and his bowling represents a point of difference from the seam attack, a genuine wicket taking spinner
As discussed at length on here there were 10 players absolutely locked in, whoever was 11th was gonna be a step down.
I’m not sure a guy with just a single 50 across ALL formats can “hold a bat” so that’s not much of an argument. Also is his spinning really that good or only good compared to what we’ve had before ? Two “Michelle’s” indicate he’s probably worth another go I guess.
Yeah a bit light in the batting. But Colin's average over the last year or so must be dire anyway. Patel took his fair share of the wickets in the two lead up tests, and got a score as well IRRC. I know the English comms love his game because it's well suited to their conditions. But mentally he just isn't there right now
I guess the question is if Jamieson is a true all rounder and if he bats seven then does Patel get in ? Blundell should walk into six with no trouble now that Watling has gone. If all that comes to pass then maybe CDGH ( respective batting and bowling figures getting worse ) drops out. 7 Jamieson 8 Southee 9 Wagner 10 Patel 11 Boult.
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@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@canefan said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@canefan said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@nzzp said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You're definition of legend is obviously a lot broader and more generous than mine.
His mullet was sensational, and gets legendary status
Seriously, though, he was a key cog in our team for a few years. Did plenty, but not sure was a 'legend'.
Well he was an automatic pick in the test team ( where his numbers are still good, quite Stokes like in fact although he’s overrated ) but then again his competition for that All Rounder spot was Santner or Mitchell….both kinda uninspiring alternatives.
With who we have as cattle in the most important format of all it wouldn’t be fair on other teams if Paddles, Cainsy or Dan the Man played in this era.
Without actually checking, I'd suspect his numbers were much better in NZ than abroad. As for his place in the test team, he was very lucky to make the WTC finals team, IMHO Patel deserved it more; he can hold a bat and his bowling represents a point of difference from the seam attack, a genuine wicket taking spinner
As discussed at length on here there were 10 players absolutely locked in, whoever was 11th was gonna be a step down.
I’m not sure a guy with just a single 50 across ALL formats can “hold a bat” so that’s not much of an argument. Also is his spinning really that good or only good compared to what we’ve had before ? Two “Michelle’s” indicate he’s probably worth another go I guess.
Yeah a bit light in the batting. But Colin's average over the last year or so must be dire anyway. Patel took his fair share of the wickets in the two lead up tests, and got a score as well IRRC. I know the English comms love his game because it's well suited to their conditions. But mentally he just isn't there right now
I guess the question is if Jamieson is a true all rounder and if he bats seven then does Patel get in ? Blundell should walk into six with no trouble now that Watling has gone. If all that comes to pass then maybe CDGH ( respective batting and bowling figures getting worse ) drops out.
It always depends on the conditions. In NZ Patel doesn't get a look in. The subcontinent he's in, and I remember we took Sommerville too. It is the lot of the 11th slot I suppose. I just don't see CDG as the kind of guy who bails us out with the bat, and he's unlikely to get us a couple of wickets against good batting when the top line seamers have failed. Patel is there if we come to realise that conditions are not suited to our other bowlers, the surface is taking spin more than we think. And he is more attack minded than Mitch
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@canefan said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@canefan said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@canefan said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@nzzp said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You're definition of legend is obviously a lot broader and more generous than mine.
His mullet was sensational, and gets legendary status
Seriously, though, he was a key cog in our team for a few years. Did plenty, but not sure was a 'legend'.
Well he was an automatic pick in the test team ( where his numbers are still good, quite Stokes like in fact although he’s overrated ) but then again his competition for that All Rounder spot was Santner or Mitchell….both kinda uninspiring alternatives.
With who we have as cattle in the most important format of all it wouldn’t be fair on other teams if Paddles, Cainsy or Dan the Man played in this era.
Without actually checking, I'd suspect his numbers were much better in NZ than abroad. As for his place in the test team, he was very lucky to make the WTC finals team, IMHO Patel deserved it more; he can hold a bat and his bowling represents a point of difference from the seam attack, a genuine wicket taking spinner
As discussed at length on here there were 10 players absolutely locked in, whoever was 11th was gonna be a step down.
I’m not sure a guy with just a single 50 across ALL formats can “hold a bat” so that’s not much of an argument. Also is his spinning really that good or only good compared to what we’ve had before ? Two “Michelle’s” indicate he’s probably worth another go I guess.
Yeah a bit light in the batting. But Colin's average over the last year or so must be dire anyway. Patel took his fair share of the wickets in the two lead up tests, and got a score as well IRRC. I know the English comms love his game because it's well suited to their conditions. But mentally he just isn't there right now
I guess the question is if Jamieson is a true all rounder and if he bats seven then does Patel get in ? Blundell should walk into six with no trouble now that Watling has gone. If all that comes to pass then maybe CDGH ( respective batting and bowling figures getting worse ) drops out.
It always depends on the conditions. In NZ Patel doesn't get a look in. The subcontinent he's in, and I remember we took Sommerville too. It is the lot of the 11th slot I suppose
For sure. Our four pace men are carved in stone and even Henry has proved he’s not completely terrible if one of them breaks.
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@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@canefan said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@canefan said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@nzzp said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You're definition of legend is obviously a lot broader and more generous than mine.
His mullet was sensational, and gets legendary status
Seriously, though, he was a key cog in our team for a few years. Did plenty, but not sure was a 'legend'.
Well he was an automatic pick in the test team ( where his numbers are still good, quite Stokes like in fact although he’s overrated ) but then again his competition for that All Rounder spot was Santner or Mitchell….both kinda uninspiring alternatives.
With who we have as cattle in the most important format of all it wouldn’t be fair on other teams if Paddles, Cainsy or Dan the Man played in this era.
Without actually checking, I'd suspect his numbers were much better in NZ than abroad. As for his place in the test team, he was very lucky to make the WTC finals team, IMHO Patel deserved it more; he can hold a bat and his bowling represents a point of difference from the seam attack, a genuine wicket taking spinner
As discussed at length on here there were 10 players absolutely locked in, whoever was 11th was gonna be a step down.
I’m not sure a guy with just a single 50 across ALL formats can “hold a bat” so that’s not much of an argument. Also is his spinning really that good or only good compared to what we’ve had before ? Two “Michelle’s” indicate he’s probably worth another go I guess.
Yeah a bit light in the batting. But Colin's average over the last year or so must be dire anyway. Patel took his fair share of the wickets in the two lead up tests, and got a score as well IRRC. I know the English comms love his game because it's well suited to their conditions. But mentally he just isn't there right now
I guess the question is if Jamieson is a true all rounder and if he bats seven then does Patel get in ? Blundell should walk into six with no trouble now that Watling has gone. If all that comes to pass then maybe CDGH ( respective batting and bowling figures getting worse ) drops out. 7 Jamieson 8 Southee 9 Wagner 10 Patel 11 Boult.
This would be absolutely gold if it does happen. Does that mean we sometimes pick 5 pace bowlers? Or does it just make us pick santner more for holding down an end and 'batting' on roads?
If Jamieson becomes a legit option at 7, we should then be able to come into every match with a strong spin option, which based on recent form is Patel as you say.
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@delicatessen said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@canefan said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@canefan said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@nzzp said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You're definition of legend is obviously a lot broader and more generous than mine.
His mullet was sensational, and gets legendary status
Seriously, though, he was a key cog in our team for a few years. Did plenty, but not sure was a 'legend'.
Well he was an automatic pick in the test team ( where his numbers are still good, quite Stokes like in fact although he’s overrated ) but then again his competition for that All Rounder spot was Santner or Mitchell….both kinda uninspiring alternatives.
With who we have as cattle in the most important format of all it wouldn’t be fair on other teams if Paddles, Cainsy or Dan the Man played in this era.
Without actually checking, I'd suspect his numbers were much better in NZ than abroad. As for his place in the test team, he was very lucky to make the WTC finals team, IMHO Patel deserved it more; he can hold a bat and his bowling represents a point of difference from the seam attack, a genuine wicket taking spinner
As discussed at length on here there were 10 players absolutely locked in, whoever was 11th was gonna be a step down.
I’m not sure a guy with just a single 50 across ALL formats can “hold a bat” so that’s not much of an argument. Also is his spinning really that good or only good compared to what we’ve had before ? Two “Michelle’s” indicate he’s probably worth another go I guess.
Yeah a bit light in the batting. But Colin's average over the last year or so must be dire anyway. Patel took his fair share of the wickets in the two lead up tests, and got a score as well IRRC. I know the English comms love his game because it's well suited to their conditions. But mentally he just isn't there right now
I guess the question is if Jamieson is a true all rounder and if he bats seven then does Patel get in ? Blundell should walk into six with no trouble now that Watling has gone. If all that comes to pass then maybe CDGH ( respective batting and bowling figures getting worse ) drops out. 7 Jamieson 8 Southee 9 Wagner 10 Patel 11 Boult.
This would be absolutely gold if it does happen. Does that mean we sometimes pick 5 pace bowlers? Or does it just make us pick santner more for holding down an end and 'batting' on roads?
If Jamieson becomes a legit option at 7, we should then be able to come into every match with a strong spin option, which based on recent form is Patel as you say.
It’s up in the air and yeah, it could make him THE most valuable guy in the team, even more than KW. At the moment the jury is out on his batting, despite the promise so far.
….and if it does happen then Santner becomes even more redundant.
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@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@delicatessen said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@canefan said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@canefan said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@nzzp said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You're definition of legend is obviously a lot broader and more generous than mine.
His mullet was sensational, and gets legendary status
Seriously, though, he was a key cog in our team for a few years. Did plenty, but not sure was a 'legend'.
Well he was an automatic pick in the test team ( where his numbers are still good, quite Stokes like in fact although he’s overrated ) but then again his competition for that All Rounder spot was Santner or Mitchell….both kinda uninspiring alternatives.
With who we have as cattle in the most important format of all it wouldn’t be fair on other teams if Paddles, Cainsy or Dan the Man played in this era.
Without actually checking, I'd suspect his numbers were much better in NZ than abroad. As for his place in the test team, he was very lucky to make the WTC finals team, IMHO Patel deserved it more; he can hold a bat and his bowling represents a point of difference from the seam attack, a genuine wicket taking spinner
As discussed at length on here there were 10 players absolutely locked in, whoever was 11th was gonna be a step down.
I’m not sure a guy with just a single 50 across ALL formats can “hold a bat” so that’s not much of an argument. Also is his spinning really that good or only good compared to what we’ve had before ? Two “Michelle’s” indicate he’s probably worth another go I guess.
Yeah a bit light in the batting. But Colin's average over the last year or so must be dire anyway. Patel took his fair share of the wickets in the two lead up tests, and got a score as well IRRC. I know the English comms love his game because it's well suited to their conditions. But mentally he just isn't there right now
I guess the question is if Jamieson is a true all rounder and if he bats seven then does Patel get in ? Blundell should walk into six with no trouble now that Watling has gone. If all that comes to pass then maybe CDGH ( respective batting and bowling figures getting worse ) drops out. 7 Jamieson 8 Southee 9 Wagner 10 Patel 11 Boult.
This would be absolutely gold if it does happen. Does that mean we sometimes pick 5 pace bowlers? Or does it just make us pick santner more for holding down an end and 'batting' on roads?
If Jamieson becomes a legit option at 7, we should then be able to come into every match with a strong spin option, which based on recent form is Patel as you say.
It’s up in the air and yeah, it could make him THE most valuable guy in the team, even more than KW.
….and if it does happen then Santner becomes even more redundant.
He already is. BCCI rule cricket and they said so.
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The obvious choice to take the all rounder spot when playing tests in NZ is Ravindra. In our conditions we don't really need a spinner but Ravindra is good enough to get through some quick overs and provide a point of difference.
He has a much higher ceiling than Santner in both the batting and the bowling department and has potential to be a high class opener. Although it does appear he is being fast tracked and he certainly hasn't dominated the domestic circuit like Williamson did before he made the test team.
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@labcat said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
The obvious choice to take the all rounder spot when playing tests in NZ is Ravindra. In our conditions we don't really need a spinner but Ravindra is good enough to get through some quick overs and provide a point of difference.
I tend to agree and it balances the batting order much better - having no one capable of playing a rear guard knock below 6 would be shown up if we played more tests against the top nations, doubly so with Watling gone.
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@rotated said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@labcat said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
The obvious choice to take the all rounder spot when playing tests in NZ is Ravindra. In our conditions we don't really need a spinner but Ravindra is good enough to get through some quick overs and provide a point of difference.
I tend to agree and it balances the batting order much better - having no one capable of playing a rear guard knock below 6 would be shown up if we played more tests against the top nations, doubly so with Watling gone.
We will miss him, he always seemed to be that guy who went cheaply if he came in when we were 500-4 but then always seemed to be that guy who saved us when we were 100-4.
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@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@canefan said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@canefan said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@nzzp said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
You're definition of legend is obviously a lot broader and more generous than mine.
His mullet was sensational, and gets legendary status
Seriously, though, he was a key cog in our team for a few years. Did plenty, but not sure was a 'legend'.
Well he was an automatic pick in the test team ( where his numbers are still good, quite Stokes like in fact although he’s overrated ) but then again his competition for that All Rounder spot was Santner or Mitchell….both kinda uninspiring alternatives.
With who we have as cattle in the most important format of all it wouldn’t be fair on other teams if Paddles, Cainsy or Dan the Man played in this era.
Without actually checking, I'd suspect his numbers were much better in NZ than abroad. As for his place in the test team, he was very lucky to make the WTC finals team, IMHO Patel deserved it more; he can hold a bat and his bowling represents a point of difference from the seam attack, a genuine wicket taking spinner
As discussed at length on here there were 10 players absolutely locked in, whoever was 11th was gonna be a step down.
I’m not sure a guy with just a single 50 across ALL formats can “hold a bat” so that’s not much of an argument. Also is his spinning really that good or only good compared to what we’ve had before ? Two “Michelle’s” indicate he’s probably worth another go I guess.
Yeah a bit light in the batting. But Colin's average over the last year or so must be dire anyway. Patel took his fair share of the wickets in the two lead up tests, and got a score as well IRRC. I know the English comms love his game because it's well suited to their conditions. But mentally he just isn't there right now
I guess the question is if Jamieson is a true all rounder and if he bats seven then does Patel get in ? Blundell should walk into six with no trouble now that Watling has gone. If all that comes to pass then maybe CDGH ( respective batting and bowling figures getting worse ) drops out. 7 Jamieson 8 Southee 9 Wagner 10 Patel 11 Boult.
The answer is, he isn't.
He's a bowler who can a bat a bit, maybe now transitioning to a bowling allrounder - with elevated current test batting stats due to a good start.
He's had a 7 year FC career with a highest score of 67. Albeit he 'looks' better than that.
He did score a hundred in one of those non-FC 12 or 15 a side warmup games against England back in 2018. But it was a blast a century job, like off 60 or 70 balls.
He'd get nose-bleeds at 7. Made even worse in that proposed 7 to 11 by being backed up at 8 by Southee who is also near nose-bleed territory when as high as 8.
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A timely opinion piece by Geenty on CdG today. He's not wrong and agrees with others in this thread.
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@bovidae said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
A timely opinion piece by Geenty on CdG today. He's not wrong and agrees with others in this thread.
He's not wrong. But CdG is already not in the top 16 NZ T20 players selected for the T20WC (which includes 2 others doing his role; Neesham & Mitchell) so it is hardly news that he isn't lording it in this format. But, yeah, it is worse than "not lording it", he's a passenger with the bat, but we look stronger on these Bangladesh pitches with him bowling rather than one of the countless superfulous tailender seamers in the squad.
He also struggled in UAE on Pakistan tour in 2019, in all formats, which is what probably cost him that T20WC spot in UAE in place of Mitchell.
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@bovidae said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
A timely opinion piece by Geenty on CdG today. He's not wrong and agrees with others in this thread.
This part, although Geenty is not entirely correct IMO on CdG role, is why I think he is now superfulous to the test XI, despite being an excelent cog for the last 5 years.
Six weeks later in Colombo, de Grandhomme monstered Sri Lanka’s bowlers for 83 off 77 balls, alongside a BJ Watling century setting up a series-levelling test victory which helped secure their spot in the World Test Championship final against India. As recently as that match in June, de Grandhomme was the preferred allrounder in an all-pace attack, and went wicketless in his usual holding role after being sidelined by ankle surgery.
He has two wickets in his last four tests – three of those wins over India – and with the Black Caps employing a four-pronged pace attack who can all swing the ball in the right conditions he becomes less of a factor. A batsman at No 6 or No 7 who can bowl effective spin – of the ilk of Glenn Phillips or Rachin Ravindra – looks the way forward, particularly away from home.
CdG, pre-Kyle Jamieson had 2 roles with the ball. Not just "his usual holding role".
NZ used him as 3rd seamer, ahead of Wagner as a specialist 4th seamer (which was a unique position I'd suggest never before used in world cricket).
CdG would bowl first change with a newish ball, he is a wicket taking threat with his swing and wobble seam. Then he would do the donkey work later when the ball was old, doing the "usual holding role".
CdG role was dove-tailed in with the way we used Neil Wagner.
But anyway. Since Jamieson has come along. CdG, if he played, is effectively changed to the 5th seamer, purely doing a holding role with the ball. No longer bowling those spells with the newish ball.
Look at the stats of the players who have bowled first to third change since Jamieson came into the team. Everyone apart from Wagner has become superfulous. This is why I think CdG should no longer be in the team and his spot should be taken by someone doing a totally different role. E.g. more focus on their batting prowess, or a spinning allrounder. Not because he was a weak link.
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@rapido It will be extremely handy if Ravindra can be good enough to hold down that 7 test spot as both a batsman and spinner. That would strengthen us from the team that won the WTC.
Jamieson at 8, Southee at 9, Wagner at 10, Boult at 11 is pretty much everyone at their level of competence and no absolute rabbits.
Nicholls and Young are going to need to step up to cover Rossco pretty shortly. We'll hopefully get at least two more years from Wags.
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@chris-b said in Black Caps vs Bangladesh:
@rapido It will be extremely handy if Ravindra can be good enough to hold down that 7 test spot as both a batsman and spinner. That would strengthen us from the team that won the WTC.
Yes, but I would bat him in the top 6 and have Blundell at 7. The message should be 100% clear to him, the media, fans that he is selected primarily as a batsman, not as a specialist spinner. Because that is a thankless task on modern NZ wickets that no youngster executing his secondary skill should feel too much pressure heaped on him for.
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I think Ravindra might be a chance for the Indian test tour in November, if he goes OK in Pakistan ODIs. He might get some Plunket Shield before then, but early season wickets ....
At this stage I'm not sure how they will balance the team for that tour. A functioning CdG would have been extremely handy to a balanced team, but I think we can put a line through that, plus his batting v spin probably reduced the true value his 'on paper' batting balance anyway.
IMO. The best NZ attack for that tour would be 2 seamers plus the 2 spinners (Patel and Sommerville) plus the allrounder CDG.
That's now a no-no.
What are the alternatives?
- Mitchell straight swap for CdG
- Ravindra for CdG, and retain an extra one of the 4 seamers (play 3), don't play Sommerville.
- Play an extra specialist batsman at 6 (Young) and make do with 4 bowlers plus Kane.
I think Ravindra is the real deal, but that would be one hell of an introduction.
I'd be OK with any of those 3 choices. I'm wondering if I rate Sommerville more highly than the selectors.