All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Good game!! Enjoyed it immensely. Both teams had a fucking go, some really good hits, some really good play, and a deserved win for the team that nailed their opportunities.
Yeah we lost, it's a bit shit, but there was some good stuff. Forwards were good. Set piece was good. Backs had some bright moments. George fucking Bridge played bloody well.
What killed us was individual errors, lots and lots of individual errors. And France turning errors in to points.
And a huge issue was our 10 and 15 had absolute stinkers, and the 23 is quite shit. Jordie has a bad day, but us a good player. Mounga is just not a good test match 10, he has no idea what to do against test match level defence. And is an absolute liability on defence. Havili is just not up to it either.
Also, please, pretty please, can this be the death of ardie savea at 8? He is just not good enough, not physical enough, and his ruck work is actually appalling.
Not going to read back so probably repeating someone else but why oh why did Havili come on for Jordan? Surely sticking DMac on the wing with instructions to interchange with JB and RM would have been a better gamble?
The silver lining is that the weaknesses have all been exposed. Now the challenge for the coaches is to recognise who and what isn't up to it and rebuild. The difference someone like Samisoni made was so massively obvious. Move aside Taylor and Coles. Thanks for your service.
All props should be told that unless they show they can play like mobile cannonballs they are gone.
I have sympathy for Whitelock and Rettalick but they need to show up fresh and full of energy or become mentors.
Ardie needs to go to being an impact player with Cane and Pas on the sides and Akira/Hoskins set loose as flying 8sI don't mind our halfback position but hoping for Fakatava to come into the picture.
RM isn't up to playing when not behind a dominant pack/ He has had time since the last world cup to sort that out and hasn't delivered. We need to pull a rabbit out of the hat to support BB.
QT looks worth keeping but I am hoping that PUJ/Wrampling puts options on the table.
Jordan needs to learn to add more to his game than being a (very good) chancer.
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@nepia said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nepia said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nepia said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
This is a worse take than how badly the AB the ABs played in the first half.
Not at the beginning of his career when first made it to ABs. He was an athlete, but nothing like the powerful blindside he would become. I recall him being dropped from the squad to work in his game, i.e. it wasn't there from day 1. That was the point
Fair enough, you probably should have specified that you were talking about before he became a regular.
Even I got what what Stodders was referring to!
When my Kaino bat signal goes off I leap in fully cocked.
I hope it doesn't affect your sleep-all that tossing around.
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@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Move aside Taylor and Coles
Disagree here, we need a player to muck it up early on in matches and Coles is still our best option to do this. Best to use Taukeiaho as impact like in this match. (NB: this may of course change by RWC time).
Taylor needs to get some form back. He's been a shadow of his former self for most of the last couple of years punctuated by the odd good old style Taylor game.
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
QT looks worth keeping but I am hoping that PUJ/Wrampling puts options on the table.
TUJ
Yeah PUJ looks much better at 13 I believe..
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nepia said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nepia said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nepia said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
This is a worse take than how badly the AB the ABs played in the first half.
Not at the beginning of his career when first made it to ABs. He was an athlete, but nothing like the powerful blindside he would become. I recall him being dropped from the squad to work in his game, i.e. it wasn't there from day 1. That was the point
Fair enough, you probably should have specified that you were talking about before he became a regular.
Even I got what what Stodders was referring to!
When my Kaino bat signal goes off I leap in fully cocked.
I hope it doesn't affect your sleep-all that tossing around.
The reality is that it's not used that often, thankfully.
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@nepia said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Move aside Taylor and Coles
Disagree here, we need a player to muck it up early on in matches and Coles is still our best option to do this. Best to use Taukeiaho as impact like in this match. (NB: this may of course change by RWC time).
Taylor needs to get some form back. He's been a shadow of his former self for most of the last couple of years punctuated by the odd good old style Taylor game.
Taylor needs a good break, I think Coles has been good for a niggly 30 or 40 mins a game..
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If the old boys are struggling at the end of a campaign now, how bad will it be in two years time?
If we are going to get a fresh new dynamic approach we have to start that process now. There will be enough experience on the park with AS,ALB, BB, Cane etc plus a few oldies on the bench.
I am all for freshness. This team and staff are stale.
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@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Ardie needs to go to being an impact player with Cane and Pas on the sides and Akira/Hoskins set loose as flying 8s
I agreed with the whole post but esp with the loosies
6/7 Cane Paps Savea
8 Hoskins and Akirasounds good to me. I think Ardie had one great game at 8 this year but struggled against top sides at 8. Cane and Paps are similar and can both play 6/7, Akira at 8 is interesting, Sotutu played well IMO this tour.
NB what happened to Luke Jacobson? Was he injured? I thought he could do well in this game, give others a rest. I am assuming they felt they needed Ardie's experience.
Edit: and I agreed with a poster (?) who said Akira and Ardie were too similar, can be dangerous to play them both in the loose trio, at least, not starting together.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
QT looks worth keeping but I am hoping that PUJ/Wrampling puts options on the table.
TUJ
Yeah PUJ looks much better at 13 I believe..
His cameo in black he looked big and strong. Now if someone can call Holland and tell him to fucken play him at the Canes
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@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial apparently Jordan came off due to injury (calf)
Yeah, I realise that, it was who came on for him that was baffling to me.
I get the RI to the wing concept but Havili proved to be a liability and I think Mac to the wing would have been better and bring far more options and opportunities. -
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial apparently Jordan came off due to injury (calf)
Yeah, I realise that, it was who came on for him that was baffling to me.
I get the RI to the wing concept but Havili proved to be a liability and I think Mac to the wing would have been better and bring far more options and opportunities.The MF were one of the bright points so I agree, that was a baffling sub
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@damo said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
One bad year when we lose 3 games and all of sudden the structures we have that have been so successful for so long are defective.?
I think we need to keep things in perspective. We cannot win every game every time.
It's two bad years, following two mediocre years. The structures aren't throwing up players that are better than NH any more. Hell, some of the players haver really regressed, and just aren't playing at the level they did a few years ago.
It's really frustrating.
Having a quality feeder comp is critical to medium term success. NPC is all good, the games yesterday showed the quality running around at that level. It's awesome. Super has faded; too much dilution, too many weaknesses tolerated and hidden. That feeds into Test rugby.
We've also lost a shedload of IP to the north. Look at all the SH coaches up there - it's ridiculous. Need to innovate and go again.
On teh bright side, after getting brutally exposed in 2009, the AB went away and came back with a really high quality bomb squad in 10, and smoked the Boks at EP to set teh standard. Then rolled through to the RWC. Glass half full says that can happen; glass half empty says it should have happened after last year's performance.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@damo said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
One bad year when we lose 3 games and all of sudden the structures we have that have been so successful for so long are defective.?
I think we need to keep things in perspective. We cannot win every game every time.
It's two bad years, following two mediocre years. The structures aren't throwing up players that are better than NH any more. Hell, some of the players haver really regressed, and just aren't playing at the level they did a few years ago.
It's really frustrating.
Having a quality feeder comp is critical to medium term success. NPC is all good, the games yesterday showed the quality running around at that level. It's awesome. Super has faded; too much dilution, too many weaknesses tolerated and hidden. That feeds into Test rugby.
We've also lost a shedload of IP to the north. Look at all the SH coaches up there - it's ridiculous. Need to innovate and go again.
On teh bright side, after getting brutally exposed in 2009, the AB went away and came back with a really high quality bomb squad in 10, and smoked the Boks at EP to set teh standard. Then rolled through to the RWC. Glass half full says that can happen; glass half empty says it should have happened after last year's performance.
Sadly I think the glass is 1/5th full.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
On teh bright side, after getting brutally exposed in 2009, the AB went away and came back with a really high quality bomb squad in 10, and smoked the Boks at EP to set teh standard. Then rolled through to the RWC. Glass half full says that can happen; glass half empty says it should have happened after last year's performance.
sadly I am in the glass half empty camp, Foster has been involved with this team for a long time now, and the issues that were present years back, are there now and as other teams improve, being shown up even more.
THe play, lack of a clear plan, playing players out of position, our passive defence is all on the coaching team...I mean surely these coaches plans are that hard that this team cannot execute it as they need it?
I dont see this coaching team as being able to learn, adapt and more importantly, grow.
Very frustrating time indeed.
So have Silverlake come back with a revised offer yet
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@taniwharugby so Fozz is part of a cunning plan to scare Silverlake away?
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@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Good game!! Enjoyed it immensely. Both teams had a fucking go, some really good hits, some really good play, and a deserved win for the team that nailed their opportunities.
Yeah we lost, it's a bit shit, but there was some good stuff. Forwards were good. Set piece was good. Backs had some bright moments. George fucking Bridge played bloody well.
What killed us was individual errors, lots and lots of individual errors. And France turning errors in to points.
And a huge issue was our 10 and 15 had absolute stinkers, and the 23 is quite shit. Jordie has a bad day, but us a good player. Mounga is just not a good test match 10, he has no idea what to do against test match level defence. And is an absolute liability on defence. Havili is just not up to it either.
Also, please, pretty please, can this be the death of ardie savea at 8? He is just not good enough, not physical enough, and his ruck work is actually appalling.
Not going to read back so probably repeating someone else but why oh why did Havili come on for Jordan? Surely sticking DMac on the wing with instructions to interchange with JB and RM would have been a better gamble?
The silver lining is that the weaknesses have all been exposed. Now the challenge for the coaches is to recognise who and what isn't up to it and rebuild. The difference someone like Samisoni made was so massively obvious. Move aside Taylor and Coles. Thanks for your service.
All props should be told that unless they show they can play like mobile cannonballs they are gone.
I have sympathy for Whitelock and Rettalick but they need to show up fresh and full of energy or become mentors.
Ardie needs to go to being an impact player with Cane and Pas on the sides and Akira/Hoskins set loose as flying 8sI don't mind our halfback position but hoping for Fakatava to come into the picture.
RM isn't up to playing when not behind a dominant pack/ He has had time since the last world cup to sort that out and hasn't delivered. We need to pull a rabbit out of the hat to support BB.
QT looks worth keeping but I am hoping that PUJ/Wrampling puts options on the table.
Jordan needs to learn to add more to his game than being a (very good) chancer.
The problem being the ABs group don't see any weakness, just a lack of execution. Foster, plumtree, moody after the Ireland game. All said game plan fine, we weren't dominated up front, mostly execution. Maybe they'll learn now? Can't see it with foster since it's been happening since the lions
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@machpants said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Good game!! Enjoyed it immensely. Both teams had a fucking go, some really good hits, some really good play, and a deserved win for the team that nailed their opportunities.
Yeah we lost, it's a bit shit, but there was some good stuff. Forwards were good. Set piece was good. Backs had some bright moments. George fucking Bridge played bloody well.
What killed us was individual errors, lots and lots of individual errors. And France turning errors in to points.
And a huge issue was our 10 and 15 had absolute stinkers, and the 23 is quite shit. Jordie has a bad day, but us a good player. Mounga is just not a good test match 10, he has no idea what to do against test match level defence. And is an absolute liability on defence. Havili is just not up to it either.
Also, please, pretty please, can this be the death of ardie savea at 8? He is just not good enough, not physical enough, and his ruck work is actually appalling.
Not going to read back so probably repeating someone else but why oh why did Havili come on for Jordan? Surely sticking DMac on the wing with instructions to interchange with JB and RM would have been a better gamble?
The silver lining is that the weaknesses have all been exposed. Now the challenge for the coaches is to recognise who and what isn't up to it and rebuild. The difference someone like Samisoni made was so massively obvious. Move aside Taylor and Coles. Thanks for your service.
All props should be told that unless they show they can play like mobile cannonballs they are gone.
I have sympathy for Whitelock and Rettalick but they need to show up fresh and full of energy or become mentors.
Ardie needs to go to being an impact player with Cane and Pas on the sides and Akira/Hoskins set loose as flying 8sI don't mind our halfback position but hoping for Fakatava to come into the picture.
RM isn't up to playing when not behind a dominant pack/ He has had time since the last world cup to sort that out and hasn't delivered. We need to pull a rabbit out of the hat to support BB.
QT looks worth keeping but I am hoping that PUJ/Wrampling puts options on the table.
Jordan needs to learn to add more to his game than being a (very good) chancer.
The problem being the ABs group don't see any weakness, just a lack of execution. Foster, plumtree, moody after the Ireland game. All said game plan fine, we weren't dominated up front, mostly execution. Maybe they'll learn now? Can't see it with foster since it's been happening since the lions
In fairness, between minutes 40-60, they weren't dominated up front and did win back momentum.
Question is - what happened in the first 40 mins and why was the performance so poor? Minutes 40-60 is the blueprint. Headless chicken rugby with nobody setting up a target to play off, especially against Shaun Edward coached defences is asking for trouble.
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@machpants said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
The problem being the ABs group don't see any weakness, just a lack of execution. Foster, plumtree, moody after the Ireland game. All said game plan fine, we weren't dominated up front, mostly execution. Maybe they'll learn now? Can't see it with foster since it's been happening since the lions
They changed tactics at half time and it worked. ST, Akira and Savea were great around the fringes. It looked like we were taking control before the two big moments (YC & intercept)
The lesson is to play tighter, pick more power. The fluff will come later in the game.
Currently we are set up to blow a team off the park from minute one.
