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@antipodean said in Ukraine:
At some point another generation of Germans are going to realise they've made a horrendous mistake.
Can restart all the nukes you want - replacing the gas boilers/heating is going to take a lot longer.
Well since it can't be immediate, best to not fucking bother then.
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@antipodean said in Ukraine:
At some point another generation of Germans are going to realise they've made a horrendous mistake.
Can restart all the nukes you want - replacing the gas boilers/heating is going to take a lot longer.
When you've got your Tesla powerwall hero advocating nuclear, then it's probably wise to listen. Solar and wind are just not cutting it mate.
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@antipodean said in Ukraine:
@antipodean said in Ukraine:
At some point another generation of Germans are going to realise they've made a horrendous mistake.
Can restart all the nukes you want - replacing the gas boilers/heating is going to take a lot longer.
Well since it can't be immediate, best to not fucking bother then.
Grumpy Old Man thread is here.
It's a fact that you're not going to solve the Russian gas reliance - either immediately or into the future - through nuclear power, without changing the infrastructure e.g. heat pumps for water/space heating. Which should be something everyone does anyway, as emissions (fugitive, process, or otherwise) aren't great for gas.
Further, simply increasing the output as Musk wants ignores the fact a lot of those plants are running below full capacity for good reasons, mostly relating to cost or safety.
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@antipodean said in Ukraine:
At some point another generation of Germans are going to realise they've made a horrendous mistake.
Can restart all the nukes you want - replacing the gas boilers/heating is going to take a lot longer.
When you've got your Tesla powerwall hero advocating nuclear, then it's probably wise to listen. Solar and wind are just not cutting it mate.
Not to go over this topic in depth again, but for the record: I like nuclear.
I think it is fabulous and we should keep as many of them running as we possibly can. I don't have an issue with the waste or the safety that so many tout as reasons to abandon it. The recent work in fusion should give everyone great hope. We should build them as fit for purpose, maybe more in SMR format, and distribute them widely when feasible.
"When feasible" being the only real issue. The market isn't going to support the costs it brings, due to a range of factors (cost ovveruns mostly through bad project management and only slightly through over-zealous regulation).
As a taxpayer, I think if newer, more efficient designs could be implemented (Phase IV, Thorium, etc) I'd be happy to look at that, despite the long term debt it would bring to the state.
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@antipodean said in Ukraine:
@antipodean said in Ukraine:
At some point another generation of Germans are going to realise they've made a horrendous mistake.
Can restart all the nukes you want - replacing the gas boilers/heating is going to take a lot longer.
Well since it can't be immediate, best to not fucking bother then.
Grumpy Old Man thread is here.
It's a fact that you're not going to solve the Russian gas reliance - either immediately or into the future - through nuclear power, without changing the infrastructure e.g. heat pumps for water/space heating. Which should be something everyone does anyway, as emissions (fugitive, process, or otherwise) aren't great for gas.
Nice strawman.
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"When feasible" being the only real issue. The market isn't going to support the costs it brings, due to a range of factors (cost ovveruns mostly through bad project management and only slightly through over-zealous regulation).
As a taxpayer, I think if newer, more efficient designs could be implemented (Phase IV, Thorium, etc) I'd be happy to look at that, despite the long term debt it would bring to the state.
and this is the problem. People see nuclear and have an emotional reaction ... so the safety requiremetns loaded onto them make the uncompetitive. It was a win for environmentalists, at the expense of screwing up low carbon generation. Hydro the same - you can't consent major hydro any more.
Solar and Wind and Batteries are the future (unless Fusion actually succeeds and scales)
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@antipodean said in Ukraine:
@antipodean said in Ukraine:
@antipodean said in Ukraine:
At some point another generation of Germans are going to realise they've made a horrendous mistake.
Can restart all the nukes you want - replacing the gas boilers/heating is going to take a lot longer.
Well since it can't be immediate, best to not fucking bother then.
Grumpy Old Man thread is here.
It's a fact that you're not going to solve the Russian gas reliance - either immediately or into the future - through nuclear power, without changing the infrastructure e.g. heat pumps for water/space heating. Which should be something everyone does anyway, as emissions (fugitive, process, or otherwise) aren't great for gas.
Nice strawman.
Ah fuck well you've beaten me all ends up there. Well played. So deeply thought through.
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@antipodean said in Ukraine:
@antipodean said in Ukraine:
@antipodean said in Ukraine:
At some point another generation of Germans are going to realise they've made a horrendous mistake.
Can restart all the nukes you want - replacing the gas boilers/heating is going to take a lot longer.
Well since it can't be immediate, best to not fucking bother then.
Grumpy Old Man thread is here.
It's a fact that you're not going to solve the Russian gas reliance - either immediately or into the future - through nuclear power, without changing the infrastructure e.g. heat pumps for water/space heating. Which should be something everyone does anyway, as emissions (fugitive, process, or otherwise) aren't great for gas.
Nice strawman.
Ah fuck well you've beaten me all ends up there. Well played. So deeply thought through.
Get pissy because I called it out. My post (https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/post/694591) didn't imply it was as simple as flicking a switch, quite the opposite.
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@antipodean said in Ukraine:
Get pissy
TBF you started it
Well since it can't be immediate, best to not fucking bother then.
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@antipodean said in Ukraine:
Get pissy
TBF you started it
Well since it can't be immediate, best to not fucking bother then.
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The problem with Nuclear is where to build it. Absolutely nobody wants to live anywhere near a nuclear power station.
I'm completely sold on solar. We had a fella here last week installing a car charger and I had a long conversation with him. He said the latest generation of panels is brilliant and more than sufficient to completely power a house in the UK 365 days a year. Now I'm not up to speed on it & perhaps @NTA can offer some thoughts here but he think our house with 16 panels will be sufficient for
All existing electricity needs
Around 50 miles per day of electric car
50% of heating needs during winter.Nick, does that sound right to you? As with energy costs literally soaring here, the cost to install pays itself off in around 1.5 years at the moment.
Even if the shelf life of the panels is only 8 years, and if you include perhaps 50% install cost in maintenance over that period, it's still a 75% saving.
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@majorrage depends on what the installer meant. If it's "you'll generate more energy than you'll use" he'd probably be correct. If however he meant "you'll be self sufficient" then that's a big fat nah.
I have an 8kW system with Korean made panels and I'm not self sufficient in energy as you can see. And I live in Australia where we have sunlight.
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@antipodean said in Future Of Energy - Ukraine Spin Off:
@majorrage depends on what the installer meant. If it's "you'll generate more energy than you'll use" he'd probably be correct. If however he meant "you'll be self sufficient" then that's a big fat nah.
I have an 8kW system with Korean made panels and I'm not self sufficient in energy as you can see. And I live in Australia where we have sunlight.
What am I missing .... how can you generate more energy than you use, but not be self sufficient? I see the graph above shows that you obviously sell to the grid, but why would you sell to the grid then buy it back?
I'm guessing battery storage or something?
Bear in mind I'm basically retarded when it comes to this so apologies if some of these answers are really obvious.
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@majorrage solar only works during the day and I still have energy demands at night. So my excess gets exported to the grid and at night I have to import energy.
If I was self sufficient I could go off-grid but unlike @NTA I don't have battery.
Edit - I would say that the next gen batteries are extremely close to being cost neutral over their life now, especially with the escalation in energy costs. Considering how much I can generate I might be able to be self sufficient, but to do that I'd definitely need the storage.
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@antipodean said in Future Of Energy - Ukraine Spin Off:
@majorrage solar only works during the day and I still have energy demands at night. So my excess gets exported to the grid and at night I have to import energy.
If I was self sufficient I could go off-grid but unlike @NTA I don't have battery.
Edit - I would say that the next gen batteries are extremely close to being cost neutral over their life now, especially with the escalation in energy costs. Considering how much I can generate I might be able to be self sufficient, but to do that I'd definitely need the storage.
Right interesting. My energy supplier says they can supply a battery for 2,300 GBP as part of the installation which also has 10 years warranty on it. Doesn't give any stats about how long & how much it can store for though.
Reading about how solar panels work last few days as obviously it reeks to me that UK weather isn't conducive to them. How wrong was I. Obviously the best way would require 6 months of storage in order to power your house for the 8 hours of light a day winters from the 16 hours light a day summers
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@majorrage said in Future Of Energy - Ukraine Spin Off:
The problem with Nuclear is where to build it. Absolutely nobody wants to live anywhere near a nuclear power station.
Totally right.
Taiwan referendum here blocked restarting existing station because of this exact point + hard core propaganda from the ruling party media who dominate the airwaves and social media. -
@majorrage The problem is solar panels are incredibly sensitive to angle and distance from the sun. I get 10 hours daylight in winter and generate ~17kW but in summer with 14-15 hours I can generate ~54kW
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@frank said in Future Of Energy - Ukraine Spin Off:
@majorrage said in Future Of Energy - Ukraine Spin Off:
The problem with Nuclear is where to build it. Absolutely nobody wants to live anywhere near a nuclear power station.
Totally right.
Taiwan referendum here blocked restarting existing station because of this exact point + hard core propaganda from the ruling party media who dominate the airwaves and social media.That's true if basically everything in modern life. Witness liberals who advocate for cheap housing as long as it's not in their suburbs.
I'd love next door to a reactor. Heaps of people in Sydney have done so for decades. The problem is how Fukushima Daiichi was framed; rather than pointing out the magnitude of the events that hit it, not enough attention is given to how well it stood up. A modern design is basically a non issue.
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@majorrage said in Future Of Energy - Ukraine Spin Off:
He said the latest generation of panels is brilliant and more than sufficient to completely power a house in the UK 365 days a year. Now I'm not up to speed on it & perhaps @NTA can offer some thoughts here but he think our house with 16 panels will be sufficient for
All existing electricity needs
Around 50 miles per day of electric car
50% of heating needs during winter.
Nick, does that sound right to you?Short answer: maybe
There are a lot of variables, and @antipodean is right in that the correct system will power you through the day, while exporting enough kWh to the grid to cover the costs you'll incur at night.
"The correct system" comes down to a few things, and when including battery storage, the starting point might be what you do now:
- Maximum power draw in your house.
- Average energy usage per day in kWh
- Usage patterns in your household - do you have a smart meter (this is common in UK depending on provider) and can your retailer supply you this data in hourly or half-hourly increments? Sometimes they do it on request, particularly if you're throwing a couple of gorillas at them for a battery.
Consultant might know more, but make sure you hammer them about all this stuff.
Before you buy the system: based on the data, can you make yourself more efficient today to help realise the value of a system (battery or not) sooner?
Not suggesting at any point you start shutting down everything and wearing a parka inside all winter like some kind of prepper, but I occasionally see people who get a solar system with a bit of smarts (app connectivity etc) and realise, once they look at the data, how badly they use power and whether they've perhaps spent more than they need to on the system.
For example, I didn't understand just how inefficient my HVAC was and how that contributed to my summer and winter bills, until I saw it "live" on the app. Experience is something you get just after you need it.
Certain things you can't change like fridges or lights at night.
But are all those lights LED?
Are you running a beer fridge or other appliance all the time you don't really use?
Is the envelope of the house nice and tight? Do you run your heating at 24C when you could get away with 21C?
Are you running the toaster and the kettle and the oven and the iron and the microwave all at the same time? Do you have a pool pump?
When was the last time you called your retailer and asked them to do better?Those are the sorts of questions that don't even need to consider a battery - if your energy rates are decent, you don't need the biggest system in the world to make your energy cost neutral.
In fact, here in the Australian market, the value for solar exports is starting to fall as the wholesale market price falls (ironically due to renewables entering the market at grid scale), so people who thought they'd just export their way to a cheque are starting to find that isn't so.
Back to your sparky: "16 panels" depends on how big those panels are (watts per), which direction they face, and how that matches up to your usage pattern. If you're able to charge the car during the day then south-facing (for NH installations) works. But maybe you also want some facing west/southwest to extend your generation period during the day, particularly for summer evenings.
Have a good look at the energy rates available for your consumption, feed in tariff (export), and any discounts. Recently my consumption rates dropped, but so did my export rate, which makes me slightly worse off per annum. And it is no good getting a 25% discount for paying on time or combining with gas when the base rate is higher.
The main thing to ensure IMHO for any install is:
- Connectivity so you can monitor the system "live" (near real time)
- Option to retrofit battery if you don't want one right now
- Check you're getting the best rates for both consumption and export overall
- Look at making your consumption smarter through better management of your energy and maybe even smart devices or lights
I follow Fully Charge for EV/energy info and smart home stuff coming out of the UK. Worth a look to see what you may be able to do with other areas:
Last word: being self-sufficient doesn't mean leaving the grid. You need a LOT of storage for that, and it isn't cost-effective, particularly if your strategy relies on export and you've got an EV to charge off peak overnight.
Future Of Energy - Ukraine Spin Off