6N Ireland v England
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@Steve said in 6N Ireland v England:
What you are saying is counter to basic logic, go and look at any, and I mean any rugby training in the last 15 years and you will find something called the tower of power, it might be labelled something else based on the country you are from but its the stance they teach players from minis all the way up to adults. That stance is instinctive in all decent to very good rugby players, it is used to protect yourself in contact.
I have never in my life seen what Steward did taught to rugby players. I have seen it specifically penalised for the action that it is.
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@Steve said in 6N Ireland v England:
Oh......this is awkward.
“The great shame is that the sport is so paralysed by its existential crisis that a vastly experienced referee such as Peyper did not feel empowered or emboldened enough to apply common sense and treat the incident as the accidental collision it was.”
Imo he was influenced by his history at aviva. The Irish gave him heaps of stick and in true Irish fashion still hold a grudge over cane vs henshaw etc during the physical match in ?2017. The crowd would have booed etc nonstop. Am genuinely intrigued to see hearing results as it’s one of the stupidest red cards ever. This year they have rid of ridiculous and systematic YC for attempted intercepts maybe they look at RC yet. But the threat of legal action over head trauma has WR in a bind.
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@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:
You’d think that Steward ought to have gone low and for the wrap, but then Keenan is already low so the possibility of head on head is increased. If the wrap is there and the tackle low does that make head on head contact then irrelevant? If so does that make something of a mockery of the player welfare thing?
I’m not looking at this argument to white knight Steward, just trying to see if there is a way out in these instances. We’ve seen a lot of comments on what Steward did wrong but apart from “not be in that position” not much about what he should have done.
From my seat, he closed the distance rapidly once he saw that Keenan was in a position to join the line, create the extra man, and catch the pass
He came from a long way back in his sweeper role, possibly too far back, and once the distance had been closed and when he was in a position to tackle Keenan - the ball carrier - he wasn’t set up for it
So he tried to disguise pulling out of the tackle by turning sideways bracing for contact
But like defenders who are penalised for changing their path of running when obstructing a supporting player or someone attempting to regather a kick ahead, Steward deliberately and consciously moved into the line of Keenan’ s run
If Keenan hadn’t made contact with Steward’s elbow it would have and should have been a YC
The elbow contact elevated it to RC
What could Steward have done differently?
- Held his line as sweeper and waited to see if the play developed
He would have been in a far stronger defensive position
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Made up the ground quicker and attempted a tackle
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Moved in the opposite direction from Keenan’s path of movement and avoided him completely
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@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:
You’d think that Steward ought to have gone low and for the wrap, but then Keenan is already low so the possibility of head on head is increased. If the wrap is there and the tackle low does that make head on head contact then irrelevant? If so does that make something of a mockery of the player welfare thing?
I’m not looking at this argument to white knight Steward, just trying to see if there is a way out in these instances. We’ve seen a lot of comments on what Steward did wrong but apart from “not be in that position” not much about what he should have done.
Mike summed it up nicely, but Steward obviously came flying in to make a tackle, right? So attempt a legal tackle. At least then there's mitigation - his action wasn't at all to benefit anyone but himself. Even if he hadn't turned side on, what's the damage to him? He'd obviously got himself into a position where he wasn't going to be able to control the contact and this is what players need to learn - if you want to do that, go for it, but you run the risk.
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Still think you guys are
a) living in the planet of real time thinking on slow motions movements
b) having no thoughts about Keenan's role in the collisionRegardless, we won't agree on that but all games have these flashpoints.
Of greater concern is that I believe many a referee would have called it a rugby incident & played the scrum. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. And that's the larger issue. Should be never be a discussion between red card & no sanction.
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@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:
a) living in the planet of real time thinking on slow motions movements
b) having no thoughts about Keenan's role in the collisiona) Yeah, dismiss us as not being able to watch a replay at full speed, ok cool.
b) Keenan was the attacker, it's not on him - sure he dips, but that doesn't mean Steward can go in upright.
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@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:
@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:
You’d think that Steward ought to have gone low and for the wrap, but then Keenan is already low so the possibility of head on head is increased. If the wrap is there and the tackle low does that make head on head contact then irrelevant? If so does that make something of a mockery of the player welfare thing?
I’m not looking at this argument to white knight Steward, just trying to see if there is a way out in these instances. We’ve seen a lot of comments on what Steward did wrong but apart from “not be in that position” not much about what he should have done.
From my seat, he closed the distance rapidly once he saw that Keenan was in a position to join the line, create the extra man, and catch the pass
So, doing his job.
He came from a long way back in his sweeper role, possibly too far back, and once the distance had been closed and when he was in a position to tackle Keenan - the ball carrier
Again, doing his job
he wasn’t set up for it
You have a point here though I feel this was mainly down to circumstance in that he was looking to cover Keenan but the ball went forward and it became a do I or don't I in regard for going for the ball. He was always going to lose that contest though and was then in two minds.
So he tried to disguise pulling out of the tackle by turning sideways bracing for contact
That is mightily subjective your honour.
But like defenders who are penalised for changing their path of running when obstructing a supporting player or someone attempting to regather a kick ahead, Steward deliberately and consciously moved into the line of Keenan’ s run
He was always in the line of Keenan's run, that's A) where the ball was and
how you make a front on tackleIf Keenan hadn’t made contact with Steward’s elbow it would have and should have been a YC
The elbow contact elevated it to RC
I can see the rationale for either card TBH, certainly under ht current protocols and I'm not arguing against that decision.
What could Steward have done differently?
- Held his line as sweeper and waited to see if the play developed
Actually he was last line of defence facing a likely two on one. If he held back it was a guaranteed try (save for the forward pass).
He would have been in a far stronger defensive position
Couldn't disagree more.
- Made up the ground quicker and attempted a tackle
Here I feel is the nub of it. Should he have attempted a tackle? The obvious answer is yes but as that would have meant him being lower, the danger of head on head is increased significantly. Now I'm not saying here that he had the time to evaluate that but there could certainly be a case for thinking it was instinctive.
- Moved in the opposite direction from Keenan’s path of movement and avoided him completely
If he did that, I can't see that the coach would have picked him ever again!
The trouble was caused in that split second when the ball went forward and Keenan (quite rightly) went for it, as did Steward. At that time I don't see what, other than attempting a wrap, Steward could have done.
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I feel like the fact the ball hits the ground and is in dispute is being completely ignored by some
If that pass goes to hand, forward or not, thrn my view completely changes, but once that ball hits the ground the entire situation changes for me.
I could have handled a yellow because no matter the circumstances, Steward got there 2nd. But a red for a guy being beaten to the ball irks me
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@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:
I don't see what, other than attempting a wrap, Steward could have done.
Yeah that definitely would have caused less damage than offering up a nice hard shoulder.
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@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:
If he did that, I can't see that the coach would have picked him ever again!
Works for Smith.
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@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:
@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:
If he did that, I can't see that the coach would have picked him ever again!
Works for Smith.
Except he was dropped 😀
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@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:
@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:
I don't see what, other than attempting a wrap, Steward could have done.
Yeah that definitely would have caused less damage than offering up a nice hard shoulder.
The thing is though that the shoulder was not the issue, it was head on elbow, with the arm more or less straight down. That’s round about waist height for Keenan’s head. How low do you have to go to tackle below the shoulder?
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@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:
How low do you have to go to tackle below the shoulder?
Yes
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@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:
@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:
a) living in the planet of real time thinking on slow motions movements
b) having no thoughts about Keenan's role in the collisiona) Yeah, dismiss us as not being able to watch a replay at full speed, ok cool.
Well then stop saying all these different thoughts that Steward should have had in timeframe shorter than it takes you write the word "the". Theres talk that he tried to disguise things, move completely out of path to avoid him completely. Neither of things were allowed by the time taken after the crap pass.
The best point you make here is that Steward should have continued on with trying to make a legal tackle & not pulled out of it. I agree with this.
b) Keenan was the attacker, it's not on him - sure he dips, but that doesn't mean Steward can go in upright.
Yes, this is correct. However even if Steward had gone for the legal tackle as you argue (and I agree), his head still would have been first contact, and if Steward had been going low, it quite possibly would have been into Steward's chin. That would have been ridiculously dangerous.
This is why I view it more as a rugby incident, than a red card incident. I think Steward was damend either way.
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@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:
@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:
How low do you have to go to tackle below the shoulder?
Yes
.... is not an answer
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@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:
@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:
You’d think that Steward ought to have gone low and for the wrap, but then Keenan is already low so the possibility of head on head is increased. If the wrap is there and the tackle low does that make head on head contact then irrelevant? If so does that make something of a mockery of the player welfare thing?
I’m not looking at this argument to white knight Steward, just trying to see if there is a way out in these instances. We’ve seen a lot of comments on what Steward did wrong but apart from “not be in that position” not much about what he should have done.
Mike summed it up nicely, but Steward obviously came flying in to make a tackle, right? So attempt a legal tackle. At least then there's mitigation - his action wasn't at all to benefit anyone but himself. Even if he hadn't turned side on, what's the damage to him? He'd obviously got himself into a position where he wasn't going to be able to control the contact and this is what players need to learn - if you want to do that, go for it, but you run the risk.
I agree with @MajorRage that Steward slowed abruptly, possibly thinking that he expected the ref to blow the whistle, but it's his actions at the end that can't be defended. He turns his body, heightens and protects himself by a clearly outlawed action. Any defender has the obligation to make their impact on an attacker safe. Steward didn't do this. Quite the opposite.
I don't think there was malice. I think it still needs to be penalised to protect the attacker. And these days it's a RC.
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Why is there continued focus on the 'forward pass' when none was ever indicated or awarded?
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@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:
Why is there continued focus on the 'forward pass' when none was ever indicated or awarded?
Because thats what played out right in front of Steward and what I believe he took his actions on.
Lack of indication or award, given the time frame, is not relevant.
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Just an observation on the Steward discussion. If a lot of knowledgeable people have been watching replays & discussing this intelligently for the last 3 days and still can't come to an agreement on a RC, how do we expect the Ref to come to the right decision after 2-3 replays in a couple of minutes?
I think we all agree the whole Red Card issue is a mess and there's no simple answer, but what's off-pissing is the lack of even trying to sort it out at Test Level (like they have at SR level) which is frustrating and making Test Rugby a much poorer experience for players and fans alike.
