All Blacks 2023
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
the u/20 first fives from 2023 are shit
I assume you see Harry Godfrey only as a fullback then, because he was class when he took over from Kemara at 10. Did Faleagaga even get a shot at 10? All I remember is Kemara disappointing.
This is the whole kind of point though, are these guys world class in the making? And even then, they are probably still too young for consideration for the All Blacks.
What it will likely end up coming down to is opportunities, which is what gives Millar and Faleafaga the biggest advantage of the young, young guys, as the Highlanders 10 jersey is open - whether they are top level, I am unsure, but both have some qualities that are likeable, and can be worked in.
Kemara has a massive chance to stake a claim, but if he doesn't get a chance at the start of next season, I think you can safely say, he is years away from being ready, if ever.
As for Godfrey, the big issue for him, is the existence of Love and Moorby. Both locked in at 15, so chances will be limited. He is basically the DMac regen, and look how long it has taken him to get to the level he is.
To conclude, if you were asking me the three 10s for the ABs in Razor's first squad, I would guess McKenzie, Cameron and Burke. I think Perofeta will end up playing 15, which will count against him, and I don't think Sullivan is a 10. Millar is the wildcard in this equation, because as I say, it is conceivable he stays fit, guides around an improving Highlanders squad, and they decide to carry him as the third 10 as a bit of a project player.
Burke I think looks tidy, but he is no Mo'unga, Barrett, or even a Cruden.
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Dmac is 28, so if he becomes the incumbent, they’ll have Perofeta and whoever new by then. They can bring in any number of young players.
That’s not to say that Mo’unga wouldn’t be useful, but it would suggest that the next set of AB coaches cant develop players for shit.
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Surely a coach is a good coach because he also has the ability to spot talent etc. The only time I can remember nz scratching around was when both Gallagher and ridge left at the same time. I’ve no doubt a 10 will turn up somewhere and Robertson will pick them. We always develop talent, have faith people. I’d be more worried about 4 & 5 then 10.
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Random Friday afternoon thought, and no idea where to put this.
I think Richie Mo'unga will be the All Blacks first five at the 2027 World Cup.
A real possibility his contract in Japan finishes in 2026 he would be 33 by the time the 2027 WC comes around, not old for a test First Five.
Ritchie has also hinted he would like to come back to the Crusaders for a couple of seasons and Razor rates him of course.
I really hope not. Scott Robertson should have had plenty of time to get his AB team/squad pretty much sorted by then.
If we have to rely on a 33 yr-old coming back from Japan one year out from a RWC to fill the 10 position, then NZ rugby is in worse state than it is now and I'd want some serious questions answered.
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@frugby four years is a long time in NZ rugby.
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@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
He certainly has a challenge ahead for next year. How well does a super coach go with a less than super bunch of players in some positions - hooker OK, props good, locks porr, loosies always good, nines looking hopeful, tens looking bare, midfield OK, wings and outside backs fine IMO
The front row, loosies, midfield and back three all look good and the only real issues are at lock, 10 and 9. Robertson will have Scooter & DMac available and Roigard looks a good bet at 9. He needs to be given time to build depth, but has a pretty solid base to work from, I reckon.
An AB coach has access to all the talent that NZ rugby has to offer. If a super coach can't get the best out of them, then it's either the coach isn't actually all that super or it's the talent pool which is the issue. Either way it can't be allowed to fester.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby four years is a long time in NZ rugby.
Let's hope it's used wisely.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby four years is a long time in NZ rugby.
Let's hope it's used wisely.
Can't be worse that the last 4. I fucking hope!
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@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby four years is a long time in NZ rugby.
Let's hope it's used wisely.
Can't be worse that the last 4. I fucking hope!
I really wouldn't have a problem with some shit results if it jolts NZ rugby into thinking about the deeper issues like player development rather than simply changing the Head Coach.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
i really hope he doesnt just walk back into the crusaders/AB's, Id hope over 4 years we have the next our guys coming through, come back and earn it...great? come back and handed it because no one else has stepped up? worrying
I don't necessarily think it is as simple as that, but if you look at the current 10s, who will be the ones we are looking at over the next four years, I don't have any great conviction in any of them.
Blues:
Perofeta - Is he a 10? Is he good enough anyway?
Sullivan - Quality potential, but again, is he a 10?
Cashmore - Not seen enough, but unlikely to be that goodChiefs:
McKenzie - Will get first crack, and will in theory be the man in the interim, but how will he go when he loses a yard of pace... massively reliant on it
Ioane - No
Trask - Don't think soHurricanes:
Morgan - No
Cameron - Maybe? Hasn't really done it yet, perhaps next year is his year, but hardly strikes confidence, and isn't actually that youngCrusaders:
Burke - Potential, needs a big Super season, then we will see. Could be a squad option, but doesn't give me the vibe of a top All Black 10
Kemara - The fact the Chiefs didn't really want him might well speak volumes
Reihana - NoHighlanders:
Millar - Similar to Burke, but obviously less proven, and can't stay fit
Faleafaga - Reads the game exceptionally well, and is probably the best running 10 of any of the real up and comers, but his kicking game is massively lackingObviously there are Jacombs and others, but we are talking about a guy to be the All Black first five. Look at the recent All Black 10s, then look at those ones. Think it is entirely possible nobody fills the void, Mo'unga comes back, and has a good Super season, and fairly waltzs back in.
David Havili.
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David Havili at 10 is not inconceivable. He is currently 28, has a big boot and has experience at 15 and 12 at all levels. He has already had to adapt to a position change playing 12 for the Crusaders which required him to stand alot at first receiver in both attack and defence as they have liked to use Mounga's ability to beat players out wide. He is no goal kicker but if Jordie Barret continues at 12 then a combination of Havili and Barret would not be a huge shock.
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@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks 2023:
Surely a coach is a good coach because he also has the ability to spot talent etc. The only time I can remember nz scratching around was when both Gallagher and ridge left at the same time. I’ve no doubt a 10 will turn up somewhere and Robertson will pick them. We always develop talent, have faith people. I’d be more worried about 4 & 5 then 10.
Hmm... the days of Mannix and Bachop too easily forgotten.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
i really hope he doesnt just walk back into the crusaders/AB's, Id hope over 4 years we have the next our guys coming through, come back and earn it...great? come back and handed it because no one else has stepped up? worrying
I don't necessarily think it is as simple as that, but if you look at the current 10s, who will be the ones we are looking at over the next four years, I don't have any great conviction in any of them.
Blues:
Perofeta - Is he a 10? Is he good enough anyway?
Sullivan - Quality potential, but again, is he a 10?
Cashmore - Not seen enough, but unlikely to be that goodChiefs:
McKenzie - Will get first crack, and will in theory be the man in the interim, but how will he go when he loses a yard of pace... massively reliant on it
Ioane - No
Trask - Don't think soHurricanes:
Morgan - No
Cameron - Maybe? Hasn't really done it yet, perhaps next year is his year, but hardly strikes confidence, and isn't actually that youngCrusaders:
Burke - Potential, needs a big Super season, then we will see. Could be a squad option, but doesn't give me the vibe of a top All Black 10
Kemara - The fact the Chiefs didn't really want him might well speak volumes
Reihana - NoHighlanders:
Millar - Similar to Burke, but obviously less proven, and can't stay fit
Faleafaga - Reads the game exceptionally well, and is probably the best running 10 of any of the real up and comers, but his kicking game is massively lackingObviously there are Jacombs and others, but we are talking about a guy to be the All Black first five. Look at the recent All Black 10s, then look at those ones. Think it is entirely possible nobody fills the void, Mo'unga comes back, and has a good Super season, and fairly waltzs back in.
David Havili.
Absolutely would not discount it.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
i really hope he doesnt just walk back into the crusaders/AB's, Id hope over 4 years we have the next our guys coming through, come back and earn it...great? come back and handed it because no one else has stepped up? worrying
I don't necessarily think it is as simple as that, but if you look at the current 10s, who will be the ones we are looking at over the next four years, I don't have any great conviction in any of them.
Blues:
Perofeta - Is he a 10? Is he good enough anyway?
Sullivan - Quality potential, but again, is he a 10?
Cashmore - Not seen enough, but unlikely to be that goodChiefs:
McKenzie - Will get first crack, and will in theory be the man in the interim, but how will he go when he loses a yard of pace... massively reliant on it
Ioane - No
Trask - Don't think soHurricanes:
Morgan - No
Cameron - Maybe? Hasn't really done it yet, perhaps next year is his year, but hardly strikes confidence, and isn't actually that youngCrusaders:
Burke - Potential, needs a big Super season, then we will see. Could be a squad option, but doesn't give me the vibe of a top All Black 10
Kemara - The fact the Chiefs didn't really want him might well speak volumes
Reihana - NoHighlanders:
Millar - Similar to Burke, but obviously less proven, and can't stay fit
Faleafaga - Reads the game exceptionally well, and is probably the best running 10 of any of the real up and comers, but his kicking game is massively lackingObviously there are Jacombs and others, but we are talking about a guy to be the All Black first five. Look at the recent All Black 10s, then look at those ones. Think it is entirely possible nobody fills the void, Mo'unga comes back, and has a good Super season, and fairly waltzs back in.
David Havili.
Absolutely would not discount it.
Chuck him in the highlanders list.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
i really hope he doesnt just walk back into the crusaders/AB's, Id hope over 4 years we have the next our guys coming through, come back and earn it...great? come back and handed it because no one else has stepped up? worrying
I don't necessarily think it is as simple as that, but if you look at the current 10s, who will be the ones we are looking at over the next four years, I don't have any great conviction in any of them.
Blues:
Perofeta - Is he a 10? Is he good enough anyway?
Sullivan - Quality potential, but again, is he a 10?
Cashmore - Not seen enough, but unlikely to be that goodChiefs:
McKenzie - Will get first crack, and will in theory be the man in the interim, but how will he go when he loses a yard of pace... massively reliant on it
Ioane - No
Trask - Don't think soHurricanes:
Morgan - No
Cameron - Maybe? Hasn't really done it yet, perhaps next year is his year, but hardly strikes confidence, and isn't actually that youngCrusaders:
Burke - Potential, needs a big Super season, then we will see. Could be a squad option, but doesn't give me the vibe of a top All Black 10
Kemara - The fact the Chiefs didn't really want him might well speak volumes
Reihana - NoHighlanders:
Millar - Similar to Burke, but obviously less proven, and can't stay fit
Faleafaga - Reads the game exceptionally well, and is probably the best running 10 of any of the real up and comers, but his kicking game is massively lackingObviously there are Jacombs and others, but we are talking about a guy to be the All Black first five. Look at the recent All Black 10s, then look at those ones. Think it is entirely possible nobody fills the void, Mo'unga comes back, and has a good Super season, and fairly waltzs back in.
David Havili.
Absolutely would not discount it.
Chuck him in the highlanders list.
Him and Ennor as rotating 10s.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
i really hope he doesnt just walk back into the crusaders/AB's, Id hope over 4 years we have the next our guys coming through, come back and earn it...great? come back and handed it because no one else has stepped up? worrying
I don't necessarily think it is as simple as that, but if you look at the current 10s, who will be the ones we are looking at over the next four years, I don't have any great conviction in any of them.
Blues:
Perofeta - Is he a 10? Is he good enough anyway?
Sullivan - Quality potential, but again, is he a 10?
Cashmore - Not seen enough, but unlikely to be that goodChiefs:
McKenzie - Will get first crack, and will in theory be the man in the interim, but how will he go when he loses a yard of pace... massively reliant on it
Ioane - No
Trask - Don't think soHurricanes:
Morgan - No
Cameron - Maybe? Hasn't really done it yet, perhaps next year is his year, but hardly strikes confidence, and isn't actually that youngCrusaders:
Burke - Potential, needs a big Super season, then we will see. Could be a squad option, but doesn't give me the vibe of a top All Black 10
Kemara - The fact the Chiefs didn't really want him might well speak volumes
Reihana - NoHighlanders:
Millar - Similar to Burke, but obviously less proven, and can't stay fit
Faleafaga - Reads the game exceptionally well, and is probably the best running 10 of any of the real up and comers, but his kicking game is massively lackingObviously there are Jacombs and others, but we are talking about a guy to be the All Black first five. Look at the recent All Black 10s, then look at those ones. Think it is entirely possible nobody fills the void, Mo'unga comes back, and has a good Super season, and fairly waltzs back in.
David Havili.
Absolutely would not discount it.
Chuck him in the highlanders list.
Him and Ennor as rotating 10s.
You took it too far. 🤮
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A comment, if I may
IMO the past 7 days is the best the ABs have looked since 2015. Everything looks so together and accurate
And, I also think it's different to even July. The attack has a different shape, the defence is definitely different. We're not "playing the same but better", we're playing different to be better.
And while yes, it's different, with hindsight you can see.thr building blocks from earlier. The selections, the tactics. Dry powder is a running joke, but I'm starting to believe it's real. We (and I doubt it's just us) do little bits of the ultimate plan with a longer game in mind.
We've bemoaned endless seemingly pointless phases. And here we are using thrm to wear out defences and kill the rush. We've bemoaned the passive defence but here it is, soaking attack, frustrating attacks that have been prepared to unlock the rush. The passive kick chase is clearly a tactic, I don't understand it, but the players very much do.
There has been a long game played here. We've learned what works and what doesn't. The teams who set out their stall years ago turned up (by the barest of margins) and got found out.
The coaches clearly played a long game. A long game that has pissed us off, but they have stuck to it. They've learned lessons, made necessary changes, adapted, and not shown the world how until last Saturday. I think Ireland last year was the catalyst.
Now look, it might all get pulled apart next week, because south africa are fucking good, and sometimes you just get beat. But I think some credit is due here.
I'm not sure how I feel about it TBH, but if they pull this off, then I need to eat shit tons of.humble pie
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@mariner4life haha yep, we've been watching the ABs battle with connect 4, while Fozzie and his team have been playing chess with a singular end game.
While I still hate alot of the past 4 years, given 3 or 4 weeks back, there were people saying we'd be lucky to get out of our pool, we might lose to Italy, we will get smacked by Ireland...
Now, after these 2 games, there is definitely a change, we have played some code worthy of making, and winning the RWC final
