Aaron Cruden
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@Nepia said in Aaron Cruden:
@Chris-B. said in Aaron Cruden:
@Rapido said in Aaron Cruden:
Throughout our history though we have always had a chain of great fullbacks,
Except between Karam and Gallagher.
We couldn't find a decent fullback to save ourselves (Bevan Wilson might have been good but was injured and eventually we came up with Hewson who was a terrible defender, but otherwise serviceable and were almost too scared to dispense with him given the disasters that had preceded him - like Farrell, Fawcett, Currie, Richard Wilson, Duncan Robertson, Codlin...).
Pray, do tell, who he should have been dispensed for? Some bloke called Robbie?
For the last few years of his reign abso-blimen-lutely! Or Crowley.
I still recall that last quarter of the game Eden Park 1981 with horror ...
But ... from hero (Wilson's try) to villain (Ray Mordt, Ray Mordt, Ray Mordt... ) to hero in the blink of a penalty goal ...
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aaron Cruden:
@Chris-B. said in Aaron Cruden:
@Rapido said in Aaron Cruden:
Throughout our history though we have always had a chain of great fullbacks,
Except between Karam and Gallagher.
We couldn't find a decent fullback to save ourselves (Bevan Wilson might have been good but was injured and eventually we came up with Hewson who was a terrible defender, but otherwise serviceable and were almost too scared to dispense with him given the disasters that had preceded him - like Farrell, Fawcett, Currie, Richard Wilson, Duncan Robertson, Codlin...).
Crowley wasn't so bad.
Post Hewson
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@Catogrande said in Aaron Cruden:
@rotated Just listing those guys and saying if that's the level of good..
Those blokes are certainly not the stand out 10s in the NH during the professional era:
In no particular order, Jonathan Davies, Wilkinson, Townsend, Sexton, Farrell (gonna cause some comment), Andrew (TBH I'd bracket him with O'Gara).
Barnes was better than Andrew.
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@booboo said in Aaron Cruden:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aaron Cruden:
@Chris-B. said in Aaron Cruden:
@Rapido said in Aaron Cruden:
Throughout our history though we have always had a chain of great fullbacks,
Except between Karam and Gallagher.
We couldn't find a decent fullback to save ourselves (Bevan Wilson might have been good but was injured and eventually we came up with Hewson who was a terrible defender, but otherwise serviceable and were almost too scared to dispense with him given the disasters that had preceded him - like Farrell, Fawcett, Currie, Richard Wilson, Duncan Robertson, Codlin...).
Crowley wasn't so bad.
Post Hewson
But between Karam and Gallagher surely?
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@booboo said in Aaron Cruden:
@Crucial said in Aaron Cruden:
Mac Herewini would likely have been a star in this day and age.
Part of the reason only 'modern' 10s have carved a high status is that the style of AB play has changed to a far less conservative way.
No mention of Nick Evans in the posts above either. He seemed to be a stand out in the UK if not so much during his AB career.
I think Frano Botica could also be added to the outstanding 10s list.Damn. Mac Herewini. But again only 10 caps.
My old man raved over Herewini s talent ,
but he may have been a bit biased , played first 15 with him at Oatahuhu college
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@kiwiinmelb said in Aaron Cruden:
@booboo said in Aaron Cruden:
@Crucial said in Aaron Cruden:
Mac Herewini would likely have been a star in this day and age.
Part of the reason only 'modern' 10s have carved a high status is that the style of AB play has changed to a far less conservative way.
No mention of Nick Evans in the posts above either. He seemed to be a stand out in the UK if not so much during his AB career.
I think Frano Botica could also be added to the outstanding 10s list.Damn. Mac Herewini. But again only 10 caps.
My old man raved over Herewini s talent ,
but he may have been a bit biased , played first 15 with him at Oatahuhu college
I think by many accounts he was the Carlos Spencer of his day but had to play a conservative role in the ABs
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aaron Cruden:
@booboo said in Aaron Cruden:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aaron Cruden:
@Chris-B. said in Aaron Cruden:
@Rapido said in Aaron Cruden:
Throughout our history though we have always had a chain of great fullbacks,
Except between Karam and Gallagher.
We couldn't find a decent fullback to save ourselves (Bevan Wilson might have been good but was injured and eventually we came up with Hewson who was a terrible defender, but otherwise serviceable and were almost too scared to dispense with him given the disasters that had preceded him - like Farrell, Fawcett, Currie, Richard Wilson, Duncan Robertson, Codlin...).
Crowley wasn't so bad.
Post Hewson
But between Karam and Gallagher surely?
Yeah sorry read that wrong. Started pre Gallagher and ended after.
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@booboo said in Aaron Cruden:
@Catogrande said in Aaron Cruden:
@rotated Just listing those guys and saying if that's the level of good..
Those blokes are certainly not the stand out 10s in the NH during the professional era:
In no particular order, Jonathan Davies, Wilkinson, Townsend, Sexton, Farrell (gonna cause some comment), Andrew (TBH I'd bracket him with O'Gara).
Barnes was better than Andrew.
Subjective. But yes, I'd agree. However he wouldn't do as he was told, which meant he didn't fit what was required. Great shame.
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@Nepia said in Aaron Cruden:
Pray, do tell, who he should have been dispensed for? Some bloke called Robbie?
Unquestionably yes, really.
Robbie was the lynchpin of the best provincial team in the country - he simply didn't make mistakes - in a Ben Smithesque way (though he didn't have the attacking weaponry of Ben Smith). Hewie had obvious defensive weaknesses.
If you were going to characterize it in more modern terms it would be like sticking with Ben Blair for two extra seasons, when you had Mils Muliaina in the wings.
Unfortunately for Robbie, he got a bad knee injury around 84/85 and was never the same player.
So I'd list him and Crowley as being serviceable - David Halligan might have been good as well, but never got the chance.
But, returning to Rapido's original point, post-Karam we didn't really have an outstanding fullback until Gallagher IMO. Even Karam might have been viewed through rose-tinted spectacles a bit, due to some of the horrors of what came after.
Conversely, I reckon you can probably list a pretty much unbroken line of outstanding opensides going right back to at least Waka Nathan.
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@Chris-B. said in Aaron Cruden:
Conversely, I reckon you can probably list a pretty much unbroken line of outstanding opensides going right back to at least Waka Nathan.
That pretty much traces it back to where it became a highly specialised position. Immediatly preceeding Waka Nathan was a young Colin Meads, Stan Meads, Graham and even Kel Tremain at times... so by extending it out you collect even more luminaries.
Between that Nathan-Kirkpatrick-Mourie-Hobbs-Jones-Kronfeld-McCaw-Cane there is perfect overlap.
The only gaps are Sundays during the late eighties, early nineties.
Aside from a Robertson/Cribb/Randell sized gap No 8 has been similarly dominant going back to DJ Graham. Hooker has been sneaky good also going back even further past Tane Norton to Young/McLeod - although you have to be pretty generous in your assessment of Anton.
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Yeah - arguably Kirkpatrick was also more of a 6 than a 7 - though he played a bit in tandem with people like Grizz in his earlier days, so presumably took on a sort of 6.5 role. Later on in the mid-70s people like Ken Stewart and Kevin Eveleigh were also outstanding opensides.
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@rotated said in Aaron Cruden:
@Chris-B. said in Aaron Cruden:
Conversely, I reckon you can probably list a pretty much unbroken line of outstanding opensides going right back to at least Waka Nathan.
That pretty much traces it back to where it became a highly specialised position. Immediatly preceeding Waka Nathan was a young Colin Meads, Stan Meads, Graham and even Kel Tremain at times... so by extending it out you collect even more luminaries.
Between that Nathan-Kirkpatrick-Mourie-Hobbs-Jones-Kronfeld-McCaw-Cane there is perfect overlap.
> The only gaps are Sundays during the late eighties, early nineties.
Aside from a Robertson/Cribb/Randell sized gap No 8 has been similarly dominant going back to DJ Graham. Hooker has been sneaky good also going back even further past Tane Norton to Young/McLeod - although you have to be pretty generous in your assessment of Anton.
Brewer was actually a damn good replacement for some of those matches.
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@Crucial said in Aaron Cruden:
@kiwiinmelb said in Aaron Cruden:
@booboo said in Aaron Cruden:
@Crucial said in Aaron Cruden:
Mac Herewini would likely have been a star in this day and age.
Part of the reason only 'modern' 10s have carved a high status is that the style of AB play has changed to a far less conservative way.
No mention of Nick Evans in the posts above either. He seemed to be a stand out in the UK if not so much during his AB career.
I think Frano Botica could also be added to the outstanding 10s list.Damn. Mac Herewini. But again only 10 caps.
My old man raved over Herewini s talent ,
but he may have been a bit biased , played first 15 with him at Oatahuhu college
I think by many accounts he was the Carlos Spencer of his day but had to play a conservative role in the ABs
Yeah I think fell out of favor with a few coaches, would dummy and run when the done thing then was to kick or pass etc,
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Brewer was excellent at 7 in 1989 after Jones wrecked his knee.
Was good at all the traditional 7 roles of the time, plus he has about 10cm height on a normal 7 so was excellent at the back of the lineout.
Ah, I miss the pre-lifting era throw to the back of the lineout.
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@Bovidae said in Aaron Cruden:
@MN5 You haven't seen the Baby Blacks vs France in 1986? Brewer was a handy loose forward who played all 3 positions and was the first-choice no.6 at the 1995 RWC.
Well no I was 9 years old and living overseas. Was he a Rueben Thorne type of player?
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@MN5 Brewer was actually a bloody good player despite appearing to be an utter twat off the field. He was probably in his prime in 1991 when he was denied a RWC tournament because of an injury ... then he wound up playing at the exact same time for Otago in the NPC.
His powers were declining by 1995 but he was still a handy player. Completely blotted his copybook late in his career by moving to play for Canterbury.
