Springboks v England - Test #2
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Starters
15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 19 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 35 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps), 12 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 59 caps), 11 Mike Brown (Harlequins, 70 caps), 10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 46 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 75 caps); 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 50 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 26 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 11 caps), 4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 52 caps), 5 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 20 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps, 1 cap), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 2 cap), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 35 caps)
Finishers
16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 6 caps), 17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 57 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 9 caps), 19 Mark Wilson (Newcastle 2 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 15 caps), 21 Ben Spencer (Saracens, 1 cap), 22 Danny Cipriani (Wasps, 14 caps), 23 Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, 3 caps)
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England name side for second South Africa Test
England head coach Eddie Jones has named his team to play South Africa in the second Test in Bloemfontein on Saturday 16 June (kick off 16:05 BST, live on Sky Sports Action & Main Event). There are two changes to the starting XV that played on Saturday with Brad Shields (Hurricanes/Wasps) making his first England start at blindside flanker and Joe Launchbury (Wasps) coming in for Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), having recovered from his calf injury. Danny Cipriani (Wasps) is named as a finisher replacing Piers Francis (Northampton Saints) on the bench. Cipriani’s last cap for England came against France ahead of the Rugby World Cup in 2015. -
Despite just two changes, a better team with more balance.
Good to see Cipriani in the mix.
England by 4-7
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The Springbok team to face England in Bloemfontein (in order of name and surname, franchise/club, caps and points):
15 Willie le Roux (Wasps, England, 42, 55 - 11t)
14 S’busiso Nkosi (Cell C Sharks, 1, 10 - 2t)
13 Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks, 2, 0)
12 Damian de Allende (DHL Stormers, 29, 15 - 3t)
11 Aphiwe Dyantyi (Emirates Lions, 1, 5 - 1t)
10 Handré Pollard (Vodacom Bulls, 27, 235 - 3t, 41c, 43p, 3d)
9 Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks, England, 12, 5 -1t)
8 Duane Vermeulen (Unattached, 40, 10 - 2t)
7 Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers, 34, 20 - 4t)
6 Siya Kolisi (DHL Stormers, 29, 20 - 4t) - captain
5 Franco Mostert (Emirates Lions, 19, 5 - 1t)
4 RG Snyman (Vodacom Bulls, 1, 0)
3 Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
2 Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers, 15, 5 - 1t)
1 Tendai Mtawarira (Cell C Sharks, 99, 10 - 2t)Replacements:
16 Akker van der Merwe (Cell C Sharks, 2, 0)
17 Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers, 25, 5 - 1t)
18 Thomas du Toit (Cell C Sharks, 2, 0)
19 Jean-Luc du Preez (Cell C Sharks, 11, 10 - 2t)
20 Sikhumbuzo Notshe (DHL Stormers, 2, 0)
21 Ivan van Zyl (Vodacom Bulls, 2, 0)
22 Jesse Kriel (Vodacom Bulls, 30, 40 - 8t)
23 Warrick Gelant (Vodacom Bulls, 3, 5 – 1t).
Mtawarira reaches century of Springbok caps
Tendai Mtawarira will make his 100th Test appearance for South Africa in Bloemfontein on Saturday in the second Test in the Castle Lager Incoming Series against England, becoming only the sixth Springbok to reach this special milestone. Kick-off at the Toyota Stadium is at 17h05. The 32-year-old Mtawarira, better known as “Beast”, is the first Springbok prop to reach a century of Test caps and he joins an elite group of only seven props who have made 100 or more Test appearances. Mtawarira will anchor the Springbok scrum in his milestone Test alongside hooker Bongi Mbonambi and Frans Malherbe, who makes a return to the front row after a lengthy absence due to injury. Malherbe’s inclusion is one of only two changes in the starting team that beat England 42-39 last weekend in Johannesburg. He replaces his DHL Stormers team mate Wilco Louw. The other change sees Pieter-Steph du Toit returning to the starting fifteen in the No 7 jersey, with Jean-Luc du Preez moving to the bench.Stats and facts: * It will be a special day for Tendai Mtawarira, who will play in his 100th Test match for South Africa, becoming the first Springbok prop forward to do so. He joins an elite group of only seven international prop forwards who have played in 100 or more Test matches – Gethin Jenkins and Adam Jones (both Wales, British & Irish Lions), Jason Leonard (England, British & Irish Lions), John Hayes (Ireland, British & Irish Lions), Martin Castrogiovanni and Andrea Lo Cicero (both Italy) and Tony Woodcock (New Zealand). * Only five other players have reached 100 Test caps for the Springboks – they are Percy Montgomery (in 2008), John Smit, Victor Matfield (both in 2010), Bryan Habana and Jean de Villiers (both in 2014). * The number of caps in the Springbok starting line-up are 368, with 114 caps in the backline and 254 amongst the forwards, while on the bench the number is 77. * The average caps per player in the backline is 16, the forwards 32 while the players on the bench average 10. The average age of the starting 15 is 26.* This will be the third Test between South Africa and England in Bloemfontein. In June 2000, England, under the captaincy of Martin Johnson, undertook a five-match tour to South Africa. Two Test matches were played of which the first was won by the Springboks in Pretoria. The second international, which was the first Test for England at the Free State Stadium (as it was called back then) in Bloemfontein, was won 27-22 by England. * On that day, all 27 points came from the boot of Jonny Wilkinson, with eight penalty goals (a record for any player against South Africa) and a drop goal. The 27 points is a joint record for any opponent against South Africa. The other two players who achieved this are Rob Andrew of England and Gerald Merceron of France. * Almost seven years later, on 26 May 2007, South Africa scored their biggest win (58-10) against the English in Bloemfontein. The score of 58 and the winning margin of 48 are still Springbok records against England. * England’s best performance against South Africa was in 2002 at Twickenham, when they defeated the Springboks with a score of 53-3, the second biggest defeat for the Springboks in history. * South Africa are undefeated in five series against England. * South Africa’s record against England in South Africa is : Played 14; Won 10; Lost 3; Drawn 1; Points for 404; Points against 252; Tries for 41; Tries against 16; Average score 29-18. * The overall record of the Springboks against England is Played 39; Won 24; Lost 13; Drawn 2; Points for 843; Points against 668; Tries for 79; Tries against 51; Average score 22-17. -
No specialist flyhalf on the Springbok bench.
Bit of a risk...Apparently Willie le Roux will cover for flyhalf, and Faf de Klerk would take over kicking duties if Pollard was injured.
Pretty big call...
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Still can't see England winning this. I would say playing at Bloemfontein is just as hard if not harder than playing in Joburg.
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I wish I could remember the name of the poster who called me arrogant and delusional for saying any fringe AB back row forward could walk into a test rugby team. He claimed Luke Whitelock could not replace Robshaw or play in England 2nd row and here Brad Shields has done both! Still think it is a bad decision not to wait for him to step onto English soil, it just sends a bad message.
Will be interesting to see the adjustments that both teams make, I do have the sense that the English outside backs are more settled but England really need parity upfront to have a chance. Totally underwhelmed by Itoje and have been for a while.
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There was an interesting article in one of the English newspapers (Guardian I think) making the point that England struggled with the pace of the Bokke pack, lost cohesion at the breakdown as a result and gave away penalties. Will be interesting if Shields can make a difference at 6.
Launchbury will be an improvement in the 2nd row and could keep Itoje focussed.
Still pick the Bokke to win. Have a sense they want to make a statement with a 3-0 result. I'm rooting for England - anything to keep Jones in place.....
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@victor-meldrew said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
There was an interesting article in one of the English newspapers (Guardian I think) making the point that England struggled with the pace of the Bokke pack, lost cohesion at the breakdown as a result and gave away penalties. Will be interesting if Shields can make a difference at 6.
Launchbury will be an improvement in the 2nd row and could keep Itoje focussed.
Still pick the Bokke to win. Have a sense they want to make a statement with a 3-0 result. I'm rooting for England - anything to keep Jones in place.....
Wow the English press have finally taken off the blinkers.
Robshaw has been a great servant to English rugby playing wherever and whenever he's been asked.
He's never given less than 100% and has at times been the best English forward, English player and MOTM on the field.
But, and it's a big BUT, he has been a penalty magnet his whole career. Many times it's been very calculated. Many times he's been caught between the devil and the deep blue sea due to lack of pace.
Will be interesting to see how the back row goes this weekend.
It seems that Itoje has taken on the role of team transgressor and refs are very reticent to card him. Up until now
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@victor-meldrew said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
There was an interesting article in one of the English newspapers (Guardian I think) making the point that England struggled with the pace of the Bokke pack, lost cohesion at the breakdown as a result and gave away penalties. Will be interesting if Shields can make a difference at 6.
Launchbury will be an improvement in the 2nd row and could keep Itoje focussed.
Still pick the Bokke to win. Have a sense they want to make a statement with a 3-0 result. I'm rooting for England - anything to keep Jones in place.....
Surprised they didn't take a leaf out of Lions playbook and dawdle for two minutes at very lineout!
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@mikethesnow said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
Robshaw has been a great servant to English rugby playing wherever and whenever he's been asked.
He's never given less than 100% and has at times been the best English forward, English player and MOTM on the field.I went to a sports dinner 3 years ago where Fitzy & David Duckham* were speaking.
Fitzy raved about Robshaw, saying the AB's would love to have him in the team as his attitude was exactly what the AB's looked for - hating to lose, giving 110%, always respecting the opposition and never a dickhead.
*Mr Duckham (one of my boyhood heroes and one of true greats) was grace personified when I told him I'd seen him play at Athletic Park in '71 as a teenager. Rated Batty as one of the best he ever faced: "Only player I've seen who make JPR look silly". Absolutely top bloke.
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@victor-meldrew said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
@mikethesnow said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
Robshaw has been a great servant to English rugby playing wherever and whenever he's been asked.
He's never given less than 100% and has at times been the best English forward, English player and MOTM on the field.I went to a sports dinner 3 years ago where Fitzy & David Duckham* were speaking.
Fitzy raved about Robshaw, saying the AB's would love to have him in the team as his attitude was exactly what the AB's looked for - hating to lose, giving 110%, always respecting the opposition and never a dickhead.
Yes but you also have to be a top class player...
(I find Robshaw a bit of a journeyman, at least as a 7 anyway)
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Interesting post on BBC website forum
EJ is stubborn and erratic:
- why pick Johnny Hill to tour if you don’t back him
- why no lock cover on bench
- why play Isiekwe at lock in last game when he has been blindsiding all year
- why pick Robshaw when he was clearly in need of a rest
- why play Brown out of position just to see whether Daly can slot in for him
- why not start Solomona against two debutant wingers
- why oh why
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It's actually starting to dawn on people that while EJ may have been able to fix the problems he inherited from Lancaster, he doesn't have a clue about team building or any idea about a Plan B.
Just over a year out from RWC2019, there's a growing fear that that RFU picked the wrong man 3 years ago and the 2019 England campaign will be another fiasco
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@victor-meldrew said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
It's actually starting to dawn on people that while EJ may have been able to fix the problems he inherited from Lancaster, he doesn't have a clue about team building or any idea about a Plan B.
Just over a year out from RWC2019, there's a growing fear that that RFU picked the wrong man 3 years ago and the 2019 England campaign will be another fiasco
Fingers crossed 😁
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I'm sure there's nothing to worry about. As long as Eddie keeps reassuring England Rugby supporters that losing 7 in a row is "part of the process of becoming a better side" everything will be fine
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@mikethesnow said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
Interesting post on BBC website forum
EJ is stubborn and erratic:
- why pick Johnny Hill to tour if you don’t back him
- why no lock cover on bench
- why play Isiekwe at lock in last game when he has been blindsiding all year
- why pick Robshaw when he was clearly in need of a rest
- why play Brown out of position just to see whether Daly can slot in for him
- why not start Solomona against two debutant wingers
- why oh why
Why indeed to all of that.
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@victor-meldrew well if he breaks his duck by upsetting the AB's later this year no one will care
Then he will be able to say he was right, he found a way to beat the ABs, now to find a way to beat all the other teams!
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I don't know why, but the terms "starters" and "finishers" really annoys me for some reason
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@mariner4life said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
I don't know why, but the terms "starters" and "finishers" really annoys me for some reason
Starters not so much. But finishers us a bit wanky
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@mariner4life mate you should see what was on TV this morning, not supposed to call old people Elderly...oh shit, if I cant call them elderly, can I call them old people too?
People that are not young...starters and finishers is the least of your worry bro!
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@booboo said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
@mariner4life said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
I don't know why, but the terms "starters" and "finishers" really annoys me for some reason
Starters not so much. But finishers us a bit wanky
But not as wanky as "Happy Enders".
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@mariner4life said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
I don't know why, but the terms "starters" and "finishers" really annoys me for some reason
In the mid 70s Liverpool FC had a player called David Fairclough.
He made his debut in 1975 and as the season progressed, Fairclough scored seven crucial goals in just 14 appearances to land Liverpool the League championship. Nine of these appearances were as substitute.
He was and is still affectionately known as 'Super Sub'
Barring injury to BB, I can see DMac having this career.
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@taniwharugby said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
@victor-meldrew well if he breaks his duck by upsetting the AB's later this year no one will care
Well, I do have my suspicions about the England win in 2012. Bit of an outlier performance by the ABs which kept Lancaster in the role until RWC2015.... (insert Conspiracy Theory emoticon here...).
But seriously, the real issue with English rugby is the lack of structure for player development. We can laugh at the fact that a player who couldn't make the AB's walks into the England test team but its a pretty damning indictment of English rugby. And there seems bugger-all discussion of that here in the UK - more about what a wonderful player Shields is.
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@mariner4life said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
I don't know why, but the terms "starters" and "finishers" really annoys me for some reason
100% yes!
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@cgrant said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
They should have select Curwin Bosch on the bench instead of Gelant as he can cover 10 and 15, and he is a very good goal kicker as well.
Good point cgrant. Bosch would definitely have been better cover. And one can argue he brings as much x-factor as Gelant.
Look, it may all work out well anyway... but it does feel like tempting fate a bit too much for my liking.
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@mariner4life said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
I don't know why, but the terms "starters" and "finishers" really annoys me for some reason
agreed.
It just feels all modern-age-new-theory-bullshitty to me. -
@mikethesnow said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
@mariner4life said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
I don't know why, but the terms "starters" and "finishers" really annoys me for some reason
In the mid 70s Liverpool FC had a player called David Fairclough.
He made his debut in 1975 and as the season progressed, Fairclough scored seven crucial goals in just 14 appearances to land Liverpool the League championship. Nine of these appearances were as substitute.
He was and is still affectionately known as 'Super Sub'
Barring injury to BB, I can see DMac having this career.
BB basically had that career until his transformation in the Wales serious in 2016.
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@victor-meldrew said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
@taniwharugby said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
@victor-meldrew well if he breaks his duck by upsetting the AB's later this year no one will care
Well, I do have my suspicions about the England win in 2012. Bit of an outlier performance by the ABs which kept Lancaster in the role until RWC2015.... (insert Conspiracy Theory emoticon here...).
But seriously, the real issue with English rugby is the lack of structure for player development. We can laugh at the fact that a player who couldn't make the AB's walks into the England test team but its a pretty damning indictment of English rugby. And there seems bugger-all discussion of that here in the UK - more about what a wonderful player Shields is.
I think the damning indictment in this issue is really Eddie picking Shields. We have plenty of pretty damn good 6s, Robshaw being one, Wilson (on the bench) another. We really don't need Shields but Eddie...
Now if he had been a 7 your view would hold more water IMO.
I would also suggest that there has been plenty of discussion around his selection. Now it's happened the media are all in love with him but previously there was a lot of argument and counter argument in the press. There is still a lot of dissatisfaction being aired on message boards, HYS etc. This is a selection that has been very divisive.
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@catogrande from what I've read, there are four people happy with the selection. Shields, Jones and Shield's parents.
One thing England is not short of is players with Shield's skill set.
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@antipodean said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
@catogrande from what I've read, there are four people happy with the selection. Shields, Jones and Shield's parents.
One thing England is not short of is players with Shield's skill set.
You sort of get the feeling that he's been selected because he's a Kiwi that qualifies for England rather than yeah, we need him 'cos the alternatives are dogshit.
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@catogrande said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
@antipodean said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
@catogrande from what I've read, there are four people happy with the selection. Shields, Jones and Shield's parents.
One thing England is not short of is players with Shield's skill set.
You sort of get the feeling that he's been selected because he's a Kiwi that qualifies for England rather than yeah, we need him 'cos the alternatives are dogshit.
Perhaps trying to import some of that "no dickheads" culture?
If Eddie knows that he can't keep Robshaw around too much longer, he might be trying to fill that gap (decent guy who gives his all, and can be a role model), rather than any on-field gap?
I don't really believe that... it seems like too much of an "anti-conspiracy theory", but it sounds nice. -
@stargazer said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
The Springbok team to face England in Bloemfontein (in order of name and surname, franchise/club, caps and points):
15 Willie le Roux (Wasps, England, 42, 55 - 11t)
14 S’busiso Nkosi (Cell C Sharks, 1, 10 - 2t)
13 Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks, 2, 0)
12 Damian de Allende (DHL Stormers, 29, 15 - 3t)
11 Aphiwe Dyantyi (Emirates Lions, 1, 5 - 1t)
10 Handré Pollard (Vodacom Bulls, 27, 235 - 3t, 41c, 43p, 3d)
9 Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks, England, 12, 5 -1t)
8 Duane Vermeulen (Unattached, 40, 10 - 2t)
7 Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers, 34, 20 - 4t)
6 Siya Kolisi (DHL Stormers, 29, 20 - 4t) - captain
5 Franco Mostert (Emirates Lions, 19, 5 - 1t)
4 RG Snyman (Vodacom Bulls, 1, 0)
3 Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
2 Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers, 15, 5 - 1t)
1 Tendai Mtawarira (Cell C Sharks, 99, 10 - 2t)Replacements:
16 Akker van der Merwe (Cell C Sharks, 2, 0)
17 Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers, 25, 5 - 1t)
18 Thomas du Toit (Cell C Sharks, 2, 0)
19 Jean-Luc du Preez (Cell C Sharks, 11, 10 - 2t)
20 Sikhumbuzo Notshe (DHL Stormers, 2, 0)
21 Ivan van Zyl (Vodacom Bulls, 2, 0)
22 Jesse Kriel (Vodacom Bulls, 30, 40 - 8t)
23 Warrick Gelant (Vodacom Bulls, 3, 5 – 1t)Not really liking this team.
Tighthead - Wilco Louw's performance has fallen of a cliff since the start of the season and probably needs a rest, but Malherbe looked REALLY out of shape in the one outing off the bench that he had for the stormers this season. With Oosthuizen and Nyakane out injured and Thomas Du Toit still learning his trade I am not sure what the alternative is, but it is concern.
Three locks starting - I am not sure about PS du Toit at blindside, I really thought he would become Juan Smith's replacement there, but I was wrong and if frankly think Mostert would be better in straight swap.
Even then I would have my reservations about the tactic as it means that at least two of the big men will have to play the 80 which isn't ideal.
But at least it means we finish with two fresh loose forwards... well not really. Given where this team is at you would ideally have Vermeulen and Kolisi playing the full eighty so one of the bench loosies is basically relegated to being injury cover.
No flyhalf/goalkicking cover on the bench - So Pollard is slated to play the entire game on Saturday with no injury cover. Should Pollard go down injured, Le Roux will move to flyhalf (he's never done that at pro level to my knowledge) and De Klerk will take over the kicking (he's never done that at pro level to my knowledge).
But Pollard won't get injured... except his injury record is actually terrible having missed basically all of 2016 and 2017 with injury. But he is all better now... except that he was under an injury cloud this week with a bum shoulder.
The worst case scenario is for Pollard to take a knock, but if the game is close Rassie might not want to take him off meaning we risk losing him again for the season.
What this selection also means is that Erasmus can't really sub either De Klerk (with Van Zyl) or Le Roux (with Gelant) so the backline reserves are also only there as injury cover.
Except for Jesse Kriel - I don't have faith in him to produce a consistent high quality performance and in no way does his inclusion justify the risk we are taking here.
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@billy-webb said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
@cgrant said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
They should have select Curwin Bosch on the bench instead of Gelant as he can cover 10 and 15, and he is a very good goal kicker as well.
Good point cgrant. Bosch would definitely have been better cover. And one can argue he brings as much x-factor as Gelant.
Look, it may all work out well anyway... but it does feel like tempting fate a bit too much for my liking.
That's a hard no for me -
1- Bosch has been varying between meh and terrible, especially in defence. And he doesn't kick for the Sharks anyway.
If you feel you need to drop Jantjes (and I wouldn't, though I am in the minority on that count), then it makes more sense to select Robert Du Preez. He is an excellent goal kicker and covers 12 in a pinch.
2- Gelant has been brilliant for the Bulls this (and last) season. I would say that he has been the best SA back in the super 15 this season and is superior fullback in every sense to Bosch with the possible exception of goal-kicking.
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I've never understood Malherbe (I've never seen him dominate a scrum and he isn't any more likely to after a second serious neck injury. Plus now he's lazy.)
Or Kriel (defensive liability, attacking black hole.)
Or Gelant (defensive liability, weak positional play, poor kicker - he's like a worse version of '97 era Percy.)
I feel like I must be watching different players than the coaches, journos and public.
And I don't understand this bench.
How I hope they all prove me wrong tomorrow.
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@sidbarret said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
No flyhalf/goalkicking cover on the bench - So Pollard is slated to play the entire game on Saturday with no injury cover. Should Pollard go down injured, Le Roux will move to flyhalf (he's never done that at pro level to my knowledge) and De Klerk will take over the kicking (he's never done that at pro level to my knowledge).
De Klerk kicked for Sale. Few games I watched he kicked well.
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@kruse said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
@catogrande said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
@antipodean said in Springboks v England - Test #2:
@catogrande from what I've read, there are four people happy with the selection. Shields, Jones and Shield's parents.
One thing England is not short of is players with Shield's skill set.
You sort of get the feeling that he's been selected because he's a Kiwi that qualifies for England rather than yeah, we need him 'cos the alternatives are dogshit.
Perhaps trying to import some of that "no dickheads" culture?
If Eddie knows that he can't keep Robshaw around too much longer, he might be trying to fill that gap (decent guy who gives his all, and can be a role model), rather than any on-field gap?
I don't really believe that... it seems like too much of an "anti-conspiracy theory", but it sounds nice.Either that or Jones is a shit coach.
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@sidbarret question about your locks: where are Estebeth and de Jager?
