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    Rugby Championship - what's the point?

    Sports Talk
    allblacks
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    • Tim
      Tim last edited by Duluth

      World Cup years aside, it doesn't look like NZ will lose it for a long time, and there has been little competition since 2015.

      Australia have very little depth, and rugby there seems to be headed to minor sport status. South Africa is turning into Zimbabwe, and will struggle to retain players. Argentina are a spirited Super Rugby team.

      Without quality opposition the future looks pretty dim.

      Hooroo 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • Siam
        Siam last edited by Siam

        It's quite good watching the Argies development
        Can't think of many other redeeming features 🤔

        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
        • Tim
          Tim last edited by

          Saw this on match attendances at another site:

          '''
          2012 - 532'644 (44'387/match)
          2013 - 488,113 (40,676/match) - Down 8.4% from previous
          2014 - 430,582 (35,882 per match) - Down 12% from previous
          2015 - 243,416 (40,569 per match) - Only 6 matches compared to previous 12 matches - but average up by 13%

          2016 - 431,288 (35,941 per match) - 0.2% increase from 2014.
          2017 - 367,318 (30,610 per match) - Down 15% from previous

          So since 2012 to 2017.. the overall drop in crowds has been a whopping 31%....
          '''

          taniwharugby Nepia 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 2
          • taniwharugby
            taniwharugby @Tim last edited by

            @tim playing at a ground like Trafalgar Park vs say EP will distort attendance numbers, but assume they woulda got over 40k to EP last night?

            THere is a point, but with Aus and SA at low points, makes it less appealing, but with us at the arse end of the world, dont really have many other options to look at.

            nzzp 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
            • nzzp
              nzzp @taniwharugby last edited by

              @taniwharugby said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:

              @tim playing at a ground like Trafalgar Park vs say EP will distort attendance numbers, but assume they woulda got over 40k to EP last night?

              EP was full - about 46k I think. That said, Brisvegas was worryingly ligt on attendance last night.

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • barbarian
                barbarian last edited by

                The draw shake-up can't come soon enough.

                That's the main issue for me, the whole thing just follows the same predictable pattern year in, year out.

                Round 1 - NZ roll over Australia, and SA get off to a good start against the Pumas
                Round 2 - NZ roll over Australia, and SA play out a tight one in Argentina
                Round 3 - NZ roll over a plucky Argentina (who bring their A game), while SA and Aus play out a fairly tight, dire match in Brisbane
                Round 4 - NZ roll over SA who look decent for 30 minutes but then fade, while Aus beat an underwhelming Argentina

                Then we actually get to the more variable games, with Australia and NZ going to SA and Argentina.

                It's just so damn predictable. Why can't we start with NZ in South Africa? Australia in Argentina? Change it up.

                I'd love a Bledisloe towards the end of the tournament, where NZ have more to play for and Australia may have a bit of momentum.

                taniwharugby 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 16
                • taniwharugby
                  taniwharugby @barbarian last edited by

                  @barbarian was chatting to someone last week and he reckons the Saffas are extremely difficult to get dates out of for scheduling (he runs a tour business and tries to plan tours around the matches there and the Saffas are notoriously slow and inflexible)

                  That said, yep, it'd be nice for a bit of variance, or throw the current format and making home and away alternate years, either 1 match v each opponent, or make it 2 but both in one country?

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • Machpants
                    Machpants last edited by

                    Blame Ozzie for that, they set the program of Bled 1&2 first, starting in Oz, under Pulver. He thought it was a great way for Ozzie to get the excitement going in rugby for Oz - sadly Oz have played like spastics since, a flaw in his grand plan

                    barbarian 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • Bovidae
                      Bovidae last edited by

                      This is the last year of the Sydney deal isn't it?

                      In theory NZ could wrap up TRC with a bonus point win in Welly.

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • Machpants
                        Machpants last edited by

                        Yeah it's different next year because of the RWC, not sure what the deal is, only one game vs each team. But open for change after RWC. Like big change, are the Boks still interested, for ex?

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • antipodean
                          antipodean last edited by

                          The problem isn't one of scheduling. it's one of competitiveness. If any one of these \four teams could win at home against all opposition, it would be a thrilling comp.

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • barbarian
                            barbarian @Machpants last edited by

                            @machpants said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:

                            Blame Ozzie for that, they set the program of Bled 1&2 first, starting in Oz, under Pulver. He thought it was a great way for Ozzie to get the excitement going in rugby for Oz - sadly Oz have played like spastics since, a flaw in his grand plan

                            But like all things doesn't it require SANZAAR approval?

                            I don't deny the push could have been done by the ARU, but everyone has to sign off on this, surely...

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • Bovidae
                              Bovidae last edited by

                              In 2015, NZ played Arg at home and Aust hosted SA in the opening round of an abbreviated RC. Otherwise since 2012, it's always been Aust vs NZ and SA vs Arg to start.

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • Machpants
                                Machpants last edited by

                                Yeah sure, but Oz really wanted it, and they got it. It wasn't worth a fight at the time - SA and NZ gave for Oz's take. I think it was a mistake, having same game set up year after year, no other tournament does it.

                                barbarian 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • barbarian
                                  barbarian @Machpants last edited by

                                  @machpants Do you have a source for that? Not necessarily doubting you, but I'd be interested to read more about that decision.

                                  Machpants 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • ACT Crusader
                                    ACT Crusader last edited by

                                    Would love the ABs to start TRC in South Africa. Hostile environment, travel factor would be a real test.

                                    Right now the Bledisloe has no real build up or momentum behind it. Have it at the end could do that.

                                    B 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                                    • Machpants
                                      Machpants @barbarian last edited by

                                      @barbarian said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:

                                      @machpants Do you have a source for that? Not necessarily doubting you, but I'd be interested to read more about that decision.

                                      My mistake it was Pulver's predecessor. A quick Google gives:

                                      https://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/rugby/bledisloe-cup-dates-switch-looms-with-aru-keen-to-schedule-wallabies-v-all-blacks-clashes-later-in-the-rugby-championship/news-story/b727e4f039d43c882d43bcf97ffe1b45?nk=426bdb267e4306913bc7ae3902fa22d2-1536538457

                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                      • mariner4life
                                        mariner4life last edited by

                                        If you take us out if it, it's a pretty good competition. The other teams are all pretty close, and tend to split their results (except for Argentina's strange mental block against Aus).

                                        Do you think the 6N would benefit from having us in it? (ignoring the huge geographical issue). You would end up with the same thing, and even competition with a runaway leader (less so because every team only plays us once).

                                        Which ever way you look at it, we're the anomaly.

                                        Siam kiwiinmelb 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 10
                                        • Siam
                                          Siam @mariner4life last edited by

                                          @mariner4life good points.

                                          Fucken love being an anomaly!

                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                                          • Nepia
                                            Nepia @Tim last edited by

                                            @tim I din't realise you were a fat Samoan.

                                            Tim 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                            • B
                                              beardie @ACT Crusader last edited by

                                              @act-crusader In the earlier draws (Tri-Nations) we seemed to often start in SA, then play Australia in Australia before playing the return games in NZ. It was reasonably challenging.

                                              ACT Crusader 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                              • Tim
                                                Tim @Nepia last edited by

                                                @nepia I don't know who those Planet Rugby guys are. 🙂

                                                Nepia 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                                • R
                                                  rustycruiser last edited by

                                                  Honestly, there isn't a point. Training run for the All Blacks every week.

                                                  Chester Draws 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                  • Nepia
                                                    Nepia @Tim last edited by

                                                    @tim said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:

                                                    @nepia I don't know who those Planet Rugby guys are. 🙂

                                                    Kovana is the guy obsessed with crowd attendance, he posts stuff like that weekly.

                                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                    • ACT Crusader
                                                      ACT Crusader @beardie last edited by

                                                      @beardie said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:

                                                      @act-crusader In the earlier draws (Tri-Nations) we seemed to often start in SA, then play Australia in Australia before playing the return games in NZ. It was reasonably challenging.

                                                      Definitely. I recall in 2005 after the Lions series we went to SA first and lost

                                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                      • Hooroo
                                                        Hooroo @Tim last edited by

                                                        @tim said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:

                                                        Without quality opposition the future looks pretty dim.

                                                        This is our chance to get past Cyprus!! This is why we need the RC so we can clean up the bottom feeders......

                                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
                                                        • Chester Draws
                                                          Chester Draws @rustycruiser last edited by Chester Draws

                                                          @rustycruiser said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:

                                                          Honestly, there isn't a point. Training run for the All Blacks every week.

                                                          We take one of those games lightly and we lose. We've a history of losing as soon as we take the foot off the pedal (usually after we've wrapped up the silverware, true).

                                                          While the Wallabies and the Boks are off their peaks, it's more than a little condescending to call them "a training run". Neither the Irish nor the English found them to be push-overs.

                                                          Our dominance dates back to when Auckland constructed a team of pure class. They refused to lower their standards and demanded everyone else raised theirs. Slowly they did. The result was a far better quality of provincial rugby -- fast and accurate, not the reliance on brute power of before.

                                                          The world needs to come to us, not vice versa. We're not big or rich.

                                                          That said, one poor coach and were back in the pack. Both the great Auckland and Crusaders sides found that out.

                                                          Bones Siam Crucial 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                                          • Bones
                                                            Bones @Chester Draws last edited by

                                                            @chester-draws rusty is a Springbok supporter.

                                                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                                            • Siam
                                                              Siam @Chester Draws last edited by

                                                              @chester-draws not sure Fred Allen would agree with your circle jerk about our dominance beginning with that Auckland team

                                                              pfft millennials...😉

                                                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                              • kiwiinmelb
                                                                kiwiinmelb @mariner4life last edited by

                                                                @mariner4life said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:

                                                                If you take us out if it, it's a pretty good competition. The other teams are all pretty close, and tend to split their results (except for Argentina's strange mental block against Aus).

                                                                Do you think the 6N would benefit from having us in it? (ignoring the huge geographical issue). You would end up with the same thing, and even competition with a runaway leader (less so because every team only plays us once).

                                                                Which ever way you look at it, we're the anomaly.

                                                                We need to find someone else to play

                                                                Siam 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                • Siam
                                                                  Siam @kiwiinmelb last edited by

                                                                  @kiwiinmelb our day will come I reckon.

                                                                  This last decade or more has been truly remarkable but while I savour the sweet taste, there's a lot of us that remember what bitter is eh?

                                                                  kiwiinmelb 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                                                  • kiwiinmelb
                                                                    kiwiinmelb @Siam last edited by

                                                                    @siam said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:

                                                                    @kiwiinmelb our day will come I reckon.

                                                                    This last decade or more has been truly remarkable but while I savour the sweet taste, there's a lot of us that remember what bitter is eh?

                                                                    Yeah , it has been a great ride ,

                                                                    And i think we have more in front of us ,last year we were a little flat at times ,

                                                                    but we are starting to hum again

                                                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                                    • Crucial
                                                                      Crucial @Chester Draws last edited by

                                                                      @chester-draws said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:

                                                                      @rustycruiser said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:

                                                                      Honestly, there isn't a point. Training run for the All Blacks every week.

                                                                      We take one of those games lightly and we lose. We've a history of losing as soon as we take the foot off the pedal (usually after we've wrapped up the silverware, true).

                                                                      While the Wallabies and the Boks are off their peaks, it's more than a little condescending to call them "a training run". Neither the Irish nor the English found them to be push-overs.

                                                                      Our dominance dates back to when Auckland constructed a team of pure class. They refused to lower their standards and demanded everyone else raised theirs. Slowly they did. The result was a far better quality of provincial rugby -- fast and accurate, not the reliance on brute power of before.

                                                                      The world needs to come to us, not vice versa. We're not big or rich.

                                                                      That said, one poor coach and were back in the pack. Both the great Auckland and Crusaders sides found that out.

                                                                      Totally agree.

                                                                      I think what we have to get our heads around is that the ABs have worked out a style that when the ability/effort margin is a few % the score margin is a lot.
                                                                      The scores look like thrashings but the effort has to be fully focussed or the result will switch.
                                                                      We don't get many close wins, we get close losses or big wins that look easy on paper.

                                                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                      • Billy Tell
                                                                        Billy Tell last edited by

                                                                        Would you be happy for the ABs to lose more often in order to make RC more tense?

                                                                        While you are deciding please take a seat on the rock over there or if you prefer there is a hard place to the right.

                                                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                        • barbarian
                                                                          barbarian last edited by

                                                                          It's going to sound ridiculous, but in some ways the All Blacks are ruining World Rugby. It's obviously not their fault, but if things pan out as you would expect, another World Cup beckons.

                                                                          As in all sports, it's great to watch champions at the top of their game, but it's also great to see the occasional underdog step up and knock the champ off their perch.

                                                                          It's been way too long since the ABs have been knocked off their perch in a game that really matters. I'm not sure the Lions really count, either.

                                                                          I think NZ's dominance of the game at all levels has contributed to the malaise here (there are 50 other factors, sure).

                                                                          Maybe it's everyone else's fault for not being good enough. But I'm starting to get a bit bored with the state of rugby. It just feels like the same thing year after year. NZ dominance is a part of that, as is similar draws, Wallaby struggles, Super issues, etc.

                                                                          But NZ dominance is undoubtedly part of it.

                                                                          Chris B. booboo D NTA 4 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 4
                                                                          • Chris B.
                                                                            Chris B. @barbarian last edited by

                                                                            @barbarian I felt the same way when Auckland dominated NZ rugby in the late 80s/early 90s.

                                                                            Also felt the same way about the Australian cricket team through the Taylor/Waugh/Ponting years.

                                                                            I guess the one thing these eras teach us is that all good thing come to an end!

                                                                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                            • barbarian
                                                                              barbarian last edited by

                                                                              But you'd have to admit we're approaching a decade of this, and there are no signs of it slowing down.

                                                                              Australia's cricketing 'golden era' lasted from, roughly, 1995-2005 (from Steve Waugh's heroics in the Windies to the Ashes in 05).

                                                                              I'd argue the All Blacks have dominated fairly solidly since 2008, and the gap could be as wide now as it's ever been.

                                                                              Kirwan 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                              • Kirwan
                                                                                Kirwan @barbarian last edited by

                                                                                @barbarian said in Rugby Championship - what's the point?:

                                                                                But you'd have to admit we're approaching a decade of this, and there are no signs of it slowing down.

                                                                                Australia's cricketing 'golden era' lasted from, roughly, 1995-2005 (from Steve Waugh's heroics in the Windies to the Ashes in 05).

                                                                                I'd argue the All Blacks have dominated fairly solidly since 2008, and the gap could be as wide now as it's ever been.

                                                                                Grand Slam was in 2006, and we thrashed the World Cup holders in 2004, and of course the 3-0 Lions series in 2005. I'd argue that we've been dominant for even longer (it's why the Barnes performance was such a big deal in 2007).

                                                                                As has been said before, it's not up to use to get worse, it's up to other teams to find ways to improve. There is more than one way to play rugby, and if England and the Boks play to their strengths they could strangle the All Blacks style of play.

                                                                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                                                • antipodean
                                                                                  antipodean last edited by

                                                                                  Just look at Ireland - limited gameplan, but executed really well.

                                                                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                                                                                  • Tim
                                                                                    Tim last edited by

                                                                                    I'm guessing that it isn't a coincidence that the best NH team, Ireland, centrally contracts its players.

                                                                                    Chester Draws 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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