Coronavirus - UK
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@Siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@MajorRage really good points, thanks man👍
Broken clocks, twice in 24 etc.
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@MajorRage said in Coronavirus - UK:
Reality is that we need to go through this for the longer overdue wake up calls to change things
- Britain is incredibly unhealthy
- The NHS is a poorly run dogs dinners. It doesn't need more money, it needs better management.
Yes and yes.
Unfortunately some of the people making the decisions on behalf of the whole of the UK have a vested interest in making the population unhealthy (food, cigarettes, booze) and keeping the unhealthy alive and kicking (private healthcare, pharmaceuticals).
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https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-20235-8
For example, the effective reproductive number, Re of New Zealand’s largest cluster decreased from 7 to 0.2 within the first week of lockdown. Similarly, only 19% of virus introductions into New Zealand resulted in ongoing transmission of more than one additional case.
That seems like lockdowns work pretty well when combined with contact tracing etc. Can't deny the efficacy of being early and having a moat though.
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@MiketheSnow said in Coronavirus - UK:
Unfortunately some of the people making the decisions on behalf of the whole of the UK have a vested interest in making the population unhealthy (food, cigarettes, booze) and keeping the unhealthy alive and kicking (private healthcare, pharmaceuticals).
Much as though I believe the NHS to be a very expensive pile of poo, I think you could well be a little bit unfair in pinning all of the COVID blame on NHS management, clinicians and health union leaders.....
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Coronavirus - UK:
@MiketheSnow said in Coronavirus - UK:
Unfortunately some of the people making the decisions on behalf of the whole of the UK have a vested interest in making the population unhealthy (food, cigarettes, booze) and keeping the unhealthy alive and kicking (private healthcare, pharmaceuticals).
Much as though I believe the NHS to be a very expensive pile of poo, I think you could well be a little bit unfair in pinning all of the COVID blame on NHS management, clinicians and health union leaders.....
Comedy Gold
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If you think it's bad here, check out France. A 45 page consent form before you can get a jab. WFT?
French vaccination campaign a 'state scandal' as just 500 receive jabs
French ask why country has only vaccinated 516 people compared to a million-odd in the UK and 240,000 in Germany
The slow rollout is being blamed on mismanagement, end-of-year staffing shortages, and a complex consent policy to avoid litigation in a vaccine-sceptical country in which 60 per cent of the population say they won't get a jab, according to the latest poll. The vaccine consent form is 45 pages long.
Only French doctors can currently administer doses and the government has ruled out opening "vaccinodromes" in stadiums or sports halls.
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@Godder said in Coronavirus - UK:
@MiketheSnow said in Coronavirus - UK:
@pakman said in Coronavirus - UK:
@Catogrande said in Coronavirus - UK:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
@MajorRage said in Coronavirus - UK:
@MiketheSnow said in Coronavirus - UK:
@pakman said in Coronavirus - UK:
@MiketheSnow said in Coronavirus - UK:
@pakman said in Coronavirus - UK:
@scribe said in Coronavirus - UK:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - UK:
@R-L said in Coronavirus - UK:
"all in this together"
Seemingly not. Had an email from the UK bemoaning lockdown and all the constraints but have to do what's necessary to curb the outbreak etc. Message ended with "we'll probably break it on New Years Eve but we'll only have a few people over".....
Not a winning attitude. When will people stop railing against these lockdowns and realise the best way out of them as soon as possible is to do what they need to and follow the rules?
Here in the UK I’m finding it hard to deal with the fact that I have normally sane , rational old friends that have blatantly and consistently, broken the COVID rules over the year. Makes me question my relationship with them. Despite everything going on (I live in the Sth East with some of the highest infection rates in the country), they're hosting a party (albeit small and I’m not attending!) tonight. So hypocritical when a couple of them have v strong socialist views that they’re not afraid to voice.
It’s just fucking weak and so selfish. I wish they’d take some personal responsibility; it’s not like the rest of us don’t want to socialise and have more freedom. I read a BBC report today from an intensive care Dr who said people like my friends, ‘have blood on their hands’ as intensive care units will be totally fucked within 2 weeks, not because of the new virulent strains but because the basic rules are not being adhered to.
Here he is. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55479018
“The people we are getting are, like the first wave, my age really. I am 58 and I would say half the patients are younger than me. It is middle-aged people or a little bit older that we are getting."
But are they already compromised before contracting COVID-19?
Because if they are, and it’s self-inflicted, then the pigeons are coming home to roost.
It’s a harsh statement but no harsher than the Doc in the article.
He’s calling ‘us’ murderers.
I’ll counter with those affected have been committing suicide for years.
Not sure it's a counter, but there is much truth in what you say. Less than 500 healthy under 60s persons have succumbed to Covid in England.
That's fucking crazy.
Less than 1% of the deaths from people with no existing co-morbidities or age against them.
So what's the right thing to do then? Tell the oldies and the sick to lock their doors for 6 months until all vaccinated, whilst the rest of us run free & hope we aren't the 1 in 100? Which means that the number of people who will get really sick will go up, the hospitals will all be north of 100% capacity, turning away people who may die and then just shrug our shoulders about natural selection?
God knows there are a million reasons to be critical of the government, the general population and the media. But whether we like it or not, we are ALL IN THIS TOGETHER. You just have to accept it.
Serious changes need to be made in the aftermath of this.
Few people take into account the strain on the health system regardless of whether infected persons die or not. They take up a bed and equipment while they are hospitalised, and away from people who need them for a variety or other ailments or surgical procedures, many that could be serious or life threatening
Add to that reduced capacity due to distancing rules and sickness/isolation amongst staff.
Staff who have been placed behind NHS administators in queue for vaccination.
Says everything you need to know about the NHS
Obviously there will be individual cases where this is right and proper. But if it’s a blanket move then heaven help us
Hopefully this is reserved for administrative staff who work in hospitals/Covid wards, not head office.
It's a lurk of sorts. Admin staff know when the bookings go live and can sit at their desks in a queue to ensure they can get in. Front liners are too busy trying to cope with patients! Clusterfuck.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Coronavirus - UK:
@pakman said in Coronavirus - UK:
A lockdown of some sort allied to border closure and track and trace makes some sense BEFORE large amount of virus around. c.f. NZ, Uruguay.
Once it's widespread than the evidence is that lockdowns per se make little difference. People's behaviours do.
I might not be smart enough to understand this so apologies if ive missed something....but, if people went into very strict lockdown, not interacting with anyone...how can that not stop the spread?, even if very wide spread, and if you do it for long enough how can it not allow for people to develop and then recover/ become noncontagious?
if the vast majority of people aren't interacting with others outside their household how would it keep spreading?
@Kiwiwomble, one has to differentiate between a lockdown allied to border closure when there were few cases of the virus around (NZ/China, etc.) and those employed once the virus was established (e.g. Western Europe and many other places).
The former were effective.
What I was referring to was the latter.
The problem is that once there's lots of virus around you're just not going to get rid of it with a lockdown. At best you'll slow its spread, but as soon as you unlock, groups of people congregating indoors are likely to set it off again.
And you can't lockdown for months on end.
If one looks at Sweden, the fact that in the Spring the people generally bought in to social distancing meant the virus was kept in check. They have had more recent problems, but it seems people there are no longer following social distancing guidance, so the virus has spread more.
In all of this, until there is large scale vaccination there will in Western Europe be a measurable level of infection and some deaths. Deaths in England are running at 7% higher than usual, which is bad, but not horrendous.
There really isn't any substitute for responsible behaviour, avoiding close contact with people outside one's bubble and wearing a mask inside in public places.
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@MajorRage said in Coronavirus - UK:
@Siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@Godder said in Coronavirus - UK:
@Siam Sure, but what cost the constant in and out of restrictions? Nobody's keen to just let it wash over the country and see what happens, so the restrictions come and go at various levels to try to keep the R value below 1 and avoid overwhelming the NHS with serious cases.
Also, if I'm honest, 6 weeks on a ventilator before dying alone strikes me as a pretty miserable way to go.
I think the last sentence sums up the difference in opinions quite well.
Suicide has killed more young people than the virus (Australia expecting 500 more youth suicides).One side puts the lives of 80 year olds before the lives of everyone else. The other side accepts that old people die every day
The third side is that the NHS is completely overrun and currently incapable of helping anybody out & this must be controlled.
Reality is that we need to go through this for the longer overdue wake up calls to change things
- Britain is incredibly unhealthy
- The NHS is a poorly run dogs dinners. It doesn't need more money, it needs better management.
- There are many fuckwits who can't get it through their thick skulls that going to parties and having fun with their friends is like fuel on the fire and ultimately kills people's grannies.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Coronavirus - UK:
@Siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@Kiwiwomble said in Coronavirus - UK:
@pakman said in Coronavirus - UK:
@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - UK:
My understanding is the UK lockdowns are pretty relaxed and not as strict as the ones imposed in NZ/Aus.
Whether you agreed with ours or not, it seems to have worked and enabled them to manage the border failures.
A lockdown of some sort allied to border closure and track and trace makes some sense BEFORE large amount of virus around. c.f. NZ, Uruguay.
Once it's widespread than the evidence is that lockdowns per se make little difference. People's behaviours do.
I might not be smart enough to understand this so apologies if ive missed something....but, if people went into very strict lockdown, not interacting with anyone...how can that not stop the spread?, even if very wide spread, and if you do it for long enough how can it not allow for people to develop and then recover/ become noncontagious?
if the vast majority of people aren't interacting with others outside their household how would it keep spreading?
For sure mate, but the context is missing. At what cost?
You can apply the same principle to amputate your foot to heal a dose of athlete's foot, but what about the life long limp afterwards? "Data" will also show you that amputation definitively leads to less athlete's foot.
The disparity, as I see it, is that this major upheaval of life (with no settled timeline), is an over reaction for this particular virus, 9 months on.
Covid19 kills less young people than wars, and I can bet you we won't be stopping wars on a world wide scale like this.
Life under lockdown threat has been more debilitating than the virus that 8 million (?) immune systems has already beaten.
This virus mortality demographic doesn't warrant the harsh response, but the next one probably will.
Well, that's one view anyway 🥱
Yeah, it was more of a a hypothetical question because the statement , “they don’t work” was made, which I didn’t feel is true, they do seem to work at stopping/slowing the spread of the virus, but there is of course a cost
What what little I’ve seen a short hard hit to the economy still seems better than ongoing in and out so semi lockdowns combined with the loss of life
The suicide point is interesting as I’ve heard from several time suicide rates are down from expected
See above but there is compelling eveidence that once Covid is established lockdowns [on their own] only move deaths from one period to the next.
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@MajorRage said in Coronavirus - UK:
@Siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
Not sceptical that they're trotting out "flatten the curve" again? With 9 months more knowledge and preparation time? (and tik tok vids😉)
That's my problem you seeRage, I have so little respect or admiration for the people deciding on all this. Try as I might my gut feeling never let's me trust these pricks at being at all competent and not at all self serving. Traipsing through this pandemic with one tool, and rather blunt at that, disregarding any questions from scientists, all the while surprised and giggling at what the population will obey, in the tradition of upper lip and good manners.
There are far too many independent ways of seeing that what is being trotted out is not bullshit. I totally get your position, even though I'm not quite in agreeance (I know a few Dr's etc who give me front-line updates, and you can see most TSF UK posters do as well). I believe that the government is seeing a lot more than we are and are having to make incredibly tough decisions on a day by day basis. I don't believe they are getting them all correct, but I am giving them the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps naively, but despite what I said to RL on the lockdown check in thread, I do actually read enough to make my own decisions.
My disdain is spared for the media. I think in a pandemic, you need to have an all-in-this-together approach. You shouldn't watch a broadcast fro the government full of facts/observations then have publications telling you 4 different things on what was said. Journalists believe their own opinions are more correct than government ones. And the start point on most analysis is "the government is full of shit because ... "
They call it holding the government to account. It's simply not. Fear sells. They are selling. And it's ethically, morally and in every other way, completely abhorrent.
Leaders and spokespeople pushing fear at every opportunity.
To be honest, I think Boris biggest issue in this pandemic is the opposite. He doesn't push t hard enough, and only seems to want to give optimism. He does need to be firmer, more often on the changes they make and decisions made.
Good luck you guys and gal's over there - humour gets youse Brits through everything, a remarkable gift you gave the world. Show us the way, but if you've had enough, show us that too🙂
There is truth in this. I get most of my hope by seeing the polls that show the country is far more pissed off with the media than anything else.
Onre thing is for sure, if the MSM were running the country the situation would be a disaster.
I think you have to stand back on this. IMO if everyone did what my family does and tried to go about things as normally as possible, but NOT visiting other people's homes, and not having close physical contact with anyone but close family, things could operate pretty normally with no lockdowns, and most things open, albeit on a numbers restricted basis. I've seen nothing to suggest that deaths in England would be much if at all above average in that scenario.
Trouble is that there is a significant number of people, mainly under 40, who know they are pretty safe, and can't bear to sacrifice their social lives. And there's enough of the virus around, that when they go crazy infections surge.
The latter group only seem to react to fear and perceived threats.
So the government is faced with promoting a flawed strategy (lockdown interruptus) to try and deal with the socially irresponsible.
I don't envy them that.
In the circumstances, I don't think Boris and his crew haven't done that bad a job!
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Coronavirus - UK:
If you think it's bad here, check out France. A 45 page consent form before you can get a jab. WFT?
French vaccination campaign a 'state scandal' as just 500 receive jabs
French ask why country has only vaccinated 516 people compared to a million-odd in the UK and 240,000 in Germany
The slow rollout is being blamed on mismanagement, end-of-year staffing shortages, and a complex consent policy to avoid litigation in a vaccine-sceptical country in which 60 per cent of the population say they won't get a jab, according to the latest poll. The vaccine consent form is 45 pages long.
Only French doctors can currently administer doses and the government has ruled out opening "vaccinodromes" in stadiums or sports halls.
MERDE!!
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Guido reporting lockdown from tomorrow.
"Guido learns the government will introduce the lockdown from tomorrow lunchtime, with schools to be closed until half term. The government has a target of vaccinating all vulnerable people (13.5m) by second week of February. Developing…!
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@MajorRage said in Coronavirus - UK:
Just a lazy 6 weeks of home school then.
Is this a UK wide lockdown or isolated again?
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@Hooroo said in Coronavirus - UK:
@MajorRage said in Coronavirus - UK:
Just a lazy 6 weeks of home school then.
Is this a UK wide lockdown or isolated again?
Pretty much UK-wide. Some slight differences between the 4 nations.