The Interweb

Crucial

Instead of tagging this on to one of the regular discussions that the topic crops up in I thought I'd start a new thread for info/ advice on things interweb related (like ISPs, expected performances etc).
 
Following on from the discussion we were having with NTA about the Strayan experience, here is the most recent Truenet Urban BB Report (which includes Oz in it's surveying). 
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.truenet.co.nz/articles/june-2014-urban-broadband-report'>https://www.truenet.co.nz/articles/june-2014-urban-broadband-report</a>
 
Note that in the 'Distribution of Speeds' graph the majority of connections in Oz are well under 10 Mb/s (2-8) while in NZ most sit in the 8-14 range. Oz has virtually nothing over about 15 while our VDSL, cable and Fibre options kick in and provide many users with speeds well in excess of this.
 
Australia are still farting about deciding their solution and falling further and further behind everyday. Given the rollout costs and timeframe in such a vast country they better pull finger quick or NZ will have a real advantage in infrastructure over them. I'm sure they have a good dedicated service for businesses but that only goes so far if individual users can't avail themselves of a good link to possible product.
 
Another interesting thing to see in this survey is the big difference in some ISPs between achievable speeds and webpage loading performance. Voda, for example, have a great Coax Cable network (in limited areas) which they market as 10 up/130 down but webpage download times on this service are actually worse than their VDSL product and on a par with the Telecom VDSL which would probably mean an equivalent speed of around 30Mb/s. The raw file download speed achieves what it says but the user experience as far as the internet goes is no better.
 
The other big thing to look at when choosing an ISP is peak time performance. a couple of the better performers in speed and latency have massive performance drops at peak times, so while they can claim some high numbers to you the performance is not as consistent around the clock as others.

NTA

The "Business Grade" services here are monstrously expensive too because of the SLAs. I pointed out to one of our senior people that we could buy 2 user-grade DSL connections for every site we owned, and spend about 5% of what the business grade 512kbps was costing us wth a 3G fallback. And it would be twice the speed on average.

Crucial

Had to resurrect this thread to wind up Nick about crappy Oz b/band
 
Here's the latest player to the NZ market to hopefully give the existing guys a shakeup.
 
No caps, 100Mbps down, 50Mbps Up, Priority traffic for HD streaming and gaming, Custom routing for gaming to reduce latency, a Gigabit Router so as soon as Gigabit services are ready for the market they will upgrade you. Can also buy a TV package that provides open access to Netflix and Hulu without needing your own VPN or Dynamic DNS.
 
$109 p/m for the gaming package, $99 p/m if you only need 20 Mbps up and no special gaming re-routing.
 
Oh, and they are endorsed by the Shat

dK

Is that a banning offense? oh, how I miss Dutch broadband speed sniff

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="dK" data-cid="455686" data-time="1413160676">
<div>
Is that a banning offense? oh, how I miss Dutch broadband speed sniff
</div>
</blockquote>
How long did it take you to get your interweb put on dK? We're just about to move to a new address and we've been told it could take up to a couple of months to get things sorted. I feel like I've entered NZ in the mid 00s before the govt leant on Telecom.

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="455689" data-time="1413162528">
<div>
How long did it take you to get your interweb put on dK? We're just about to move to a new address and we've been told it could take up to a couple of months to get things sorted. I feel like I've entered NZ in the mid 00s before the govt leant on Telecom.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 To be fair most of the issue with waiting for connections in NZ in the '00s' was due to infill housing and developers not arranging for infrastructure. Connections were over the existing copper lines but if you had a dead end street in Auckland where every second quarter acre section was subdivided and another house put on that places a massive strain on the existing lines and cabinets that were designed on old planning and with one port for every house in the street plus a couple of extras.
The consumer couldn't understand the delays, but the work involved to connect one more property could have involved cabinet upgrades, capacity upgrades, exchange changes etc etc and in many cases the whole backhaul was in line for a complete upgrade in coming months so it wasn't worth it and better to wait until the fibre to the cabinet was complete. Frustrating for many people but that was the reality and the legacy of the Rod Dean, Teresa Gattung era of non investment in the network to maximise profit, shareholder return and their own bonuses. It was the Govt pushing for returns that helped create the situation until they realised they needed to throw the blame back at Telecom to save votes.
It has taken a lot of work and money to bring things up to needs in most places and now the attempt is to build for what the future requires.
 
We will have similar frustration now these new players with great packages have come to a part built fibre market. Lots of people will be watching those ads and getting pissed of that the biggest infrastructure project in NZ can't click it's fingers and provide fibre for everyone instantly.

dK

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="455689" data-time="1413162528">
<div>
How long did it take you to get your interweb put on dK? We're just about to move to a new address and we've been told it could take up to a couple of months to get things sorted. I feel like I've entered NZ in the mid 00s before the govt leant on Telecom.
</div>
</blockquote>
Once I had a permanent address, it took about two weeks to deliver the modem and then schedule a technician to check if the house could be connected. Which we didn't need in the end as a Telstra Techie was in the building and for $50 cash under the table, he connected us. Optus then took another week to flick the switch so we could actually surf the web. So all up about a month from placing the order to getting online.

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="455693" data-time="1413164564">
<div>
 To be fair most of the issue with waiting for connections in NZ in the '00s' was due to infill housing and developers not arranging for infrastructure. Connections were over the existing copper lines but if you had a dead end street in Auckland where every second quarter acre section was subdivided and another house put on that places a massive strain on the existing lines and cabinets that were designed on old planning and with one port for every house in the street plus a couple of extras.
The consumer couldn't understand the delays, but the work involved to connect one more property could have involved cabinet upgrades, capacity upgrades, exchange changes etc etc and in many cases the whole backhaul was in line for a complete upgrade in coming months so it wasn't worth it and better to wait until the fibre to the cabinet was complete. Frustrating for many people but that was the reality and the legacy of the Rod Dean, Teresa Gattung era of non investment in the network to maximise profit, shareholder return and their own bonuses. It was the Govt pushing for returns that helped create the situation until they realised they needed to throw the blame back at Telecom to save votes.
It has taken a lot of work and money to bring things up to needs in most places and now the attempt is to build for what the future requires.
 
We will have similar frustration now these new players with great packages have come to a part built fibre market. Lots of people will be watching those ads and getting pissed of that the biggest infrastructure project in NZ can't click it's fingers and provide fibre for everyone instantly.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Australia is suffering a transitional period as well. Namely major service providers weren't/ aren't upgrading their exchanges while waiting for clear direction on the path the NBN was/ is taking.

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="dK" data-cid="455707" data-time="1413169953">
<div>
Once I had a permanent address, it took about two weeks to deliver the modem and then schedule a technician to check if the house could be connected. Which we didn't need in the end as a Telstra Techie was in the building and for $50 cash under the table, he connected us. Optus then took another week to flick the switch so we could actually surf the web. So all up about a month from placing the order to getting online.
</div>
</blockquote>
Grrr. Man, that sucks. I guess I'm going to have to buy some sort of wireless dongle for the month or so we'll have to wait.

dogmeat

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="455693" data-time="1413164564">
<div>
 Lots of people will be watching those ads and getting pissed of that the biggest infrastructure project in NZ can't click it's fingers and provide fibre for everyone instantly.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
That's me. Fucks me off no end that every frigging street I go down has signs up "Finished Connecting you to UFB" and Chorus' website still hasn't a date for my street.
 
If I walk south East or West UFB is available within 100 metres. But I still get the
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">UFB deployment dates for your area are still being developed
 
</blockquote>
 
 :mad1:

Kirwan

I'll tell you what it's like in a few weeks Dogmeat, new house has it :)

dogmeat

A.S.S.H.O.L.E.

NTA

So now the FTTN is being rolled out to another 170,000 residences. Malcolm Turnbull (The Arch fluffybunny of web denial) is lauding speeds of 90mbps at some guy's house, but suspect he's probably relocated his house to sit right on top of the nearest node.
 
Meanwhile, I'm sitting here in one of Sydney's newest suburbs with this:
 
[URL=http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/3850767677]<img src="http://www.speedtest.net/result/3850767677.png" alt="3850767677.png">[/URL]
 
While sitting about 200 metres from the nearest sweet, sweet fibre...

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="457477" data-time="1413975387">
<div>
So now the FTTN is being rolled out to another 170,000 residences. Malcolm Turnbull (The Arch fluffybunny of web denial) is lauding speeds of 90mbps at some guy's house, but suspect he's probably relocated his house to sit right on top of the nearest node.
 
 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Rubbish. He'd need Fibre to the premise for that speed, along with a fibre compatible router configured correctly. Copper line and an ADSL router connecting to the node couldn't do it.

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
In the beginning UFB was formless and void.
 
The Planning team sharpened their pencils, and extra pages were added to the glossary to handle the new acronyms.
 
UFB is all about FTTP, â€˜fibre to the premiseâ€™.
 
The task as Planners was to divide our UFB patches into areas of up to 240 premises so they could be serviced by a fibre splitter cabinet. The splitter takes one port from the exchange equipment and splits it out to 32 end users.
 
 These areas are known as Fibre Flexibility Points, or FFPs, and there are more than 6000 FFPs across the country, nearly half of them in the Auckland region.
 
For example, hereâ€™s an FFP in Rotorua of 228 premises that looks a bit like a rhinoceros.
<img src="https://intranet.chorus.co.nz/dailyhum/Lists/Photos/default/UFB planning 1.png" alt="UFB%20planning%201.png">
The Planners looked at the FFPs they had created, and they were jolly good.
All the premises in an FFP would need a duct or fibre back to a cabinet that housed the splitters. We pitied the poor chaps who would have to build it, but we went back to our day jobs as our work was done. Or so we thought.
 
Sometime about the end of year 2 â€˜Year 4 Architectureâ€™ was born.
 
Instead of bringing all the fibres in an FFP back to a central cabinet, we could distribute the splitters out in the neighbourhood. Each FFP area would do away with the cabinet and have up to 6 splitter housings in the ground, called ABFFPs. 
 
Unfortunately for the Planners, it was back to the drawing board as all our FFPs needed to be divided up into smaller areas of 40-46 premises.
 
We extract data out of Netmap about where people live, how many people live there, where our existing network is, and how full our ducts are.
 
FOND takes all this data and does â€˜mathsâ€™ with it.
 
FOND then produces assorted shapefiles showing lead-ins to each property, how that lead-in gets back to an ABFFP, a feeder cable for each ABFFP from an FFP, and the feeder cable from the FFP back to the exchange.
 
Hereâ€™s that Rotorua FFP divided into 6 ABFFP areas. Everything is colour-coded and the wee numbers show how many premises are fed from each ABFFP.
<img src="https://intranet.chorus.co.nz/dailyhum/Lists/Photos/default/UFB planning 2.png" alt="UFB%20planning%202.png">
Using the data about our existing ducts it can work out where we can re-use them. If we have to lay new ones, it plans routes that minimises how much we have to put in the ground.
This view shows the fibre distribution network, and the lead-ins to each property.
<img src="https://intranet.chorus.co.nz/dailyhum/Lists/Photos/default/UFB planning 3.png" alt="UFB%20planning%203.png">
 
 
Meanwhile, assorted power line companies were being asked if we could share their poles for fibre cable distribution.
 
Itâ€™s back to the drawing board, again, to get FOND to read data from the lines companies, compare that with where our network and our customers are, and work out the best way of putting it all together. The early attempts were a bit weird, but itâ€™s nearly at a stage where we can use it for the next wave of projects.
 
In this map the Blue line is where we could use aerial cable. Orange is for existing ducts and Cyan is where we would have to trench. If we didnâ€™t use aerial, most of the blue line would have to have new ducts laid. The aerial algorithms in the FOND tool are still getting adjusted
<img src="https://intranet.chorus.co.nz/dailyhum/Lists/Photos/default/UFB planning 4.png" alt="UFB%20planning%204.png">
</blockquote>
 
 
Thought this may go some way to explain the complexity of doing a fibre rollout. It must be bloody frustrating to be on the wrong side of the boundary of one of these puzzle pieces waiting for your piece to be built but as you can see, there are limitations of numbers per area.
I don't know the exact situation in Oz but the NBN also use the FOND planning tool.
All I can say is that the companies doing the rollout want to connect as many people as possible in the quickest possible time. The circumstances as to why some areas get done before others are many and can be dictated by govt deals (eg a school or medical centre could result in the neighbouring area being done as described above but the areas next to it aren't necessarily done next as they have to go and do the next school/ medical centre first)

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="457502" data-time="1414006523">
<div>
Rubbish. He'd need Fibre to the premise for that speed, along with a fibre compatible router configured correctly. Copper line and an ADSL router connecting to the node couldn't do it.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Well, you know - he's a politician. See article below - ping speed is an interesting point... 
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/08/seeing-is-believing-malcolm-turnbull-speed-tests-fibre-to-the-node/'>http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/08/seeing-is-believing-malcolm-turnbull-speed-tests-fibre-to-the-node/</a>
 
 
iiNet are saying their customers are getting some decent speeds - but I wonder how that is going to change as more users are put on?
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.zdnet.com/nbn-fibre-to-the-node-trial-reveals-slower-speeds-7000034688/'>http://www.zdnet.com/nbn-fibre-to-the-node-trial-reveals-slower-speeds-7000034688/</a>
 
 
 
And of course, the copper is the thing as the article says - particularly if you're more than about 1000m from the node by wire. Even if you're closer, the older stuff might not be in quite the same shape and will just need replacing anyway.
 
At which point its as cheap to put in fibre and be done with it.

Crucial

Australia is fast getting left behind and the latest announcement of curtailing the NBN even further is going to hurt.
 
Basically, when they get around to it, there will be primarily FTTN (something NZ has had for a while now).
 
<div>According to OOKLA Stats.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>World Benchmark: 21.7 Down/9.9 up with mobile 11 down/4.5 up</div>
<div>Australia: 15.9 down/3.9 up with mobile 18.5 down/8.1 up</div>
<div>NZ 25.2 down/11.2 up with mobile 26.3 down/ 10.1 up</div>
<div> </div>
<div>These numbers are only gathered from those doing Ookla tests and tend to be high due to most tests being done by geeks comparing dick sizes. They can probably be compared though.</div>
<div>By Ooklas stats again, over the past two years NZ has improved from 10.7 down, yet Australia started at 12.8. We surpassed Aus in June 2013 and have widened the gap ever since.</div>
<div>I know that the actual connection speed data for NZ straight from the Network Analysers within the network is around 16Mbps which includes rural etc. By world standards that is only starting to quite good and has been on a steady increase for a number of years as people swap out ADSL2+ for VDSL and Fibre (where available)</div>

antipodean

This is (work) wireless connection provided at a client site:
<img src="http://www.speedtest.net/result/3988078196.png" alt="3988078196.png">
 
As you can see, pretty average. :(
 
Thankfully my home connection is much, much better.

Crucial

Canberra tops the averages by city in Oz at an average of 18.5 down which is not far below Auckland (21.7) but way behind Christchurch and Wellington (40 and 29).
Christchurch is presumably high from a large fibre uptake after rebuild.

Nepia

<img src="http://www.speedtest.net/result/3988091684.png" alt="3988091684.png">
 
This is somewhat deceiving. We mostly hover around 10Mb and in the evening we drop down and the ping is usually a lot slower.

Crucial

Virgil

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="465534" data-time="1418698080">
<div>
<img src="http://www.speedtest.net/result/3988102889.png" alt="3988102889.png">
</div>
</blockquote>
Now your just fucking showing off...
 
Heres mine, not bad from the wops of Helensville.
 
<img src="http://www.speedtest.net/result/3988104470.png" alt="3988104470.png">

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="465536" data-time="1418698208">
<div>
Now your just fucking showing off...
 
Heres mine, not bad from the wops of Helensville.
 
<img src="http://www.speedtest.net/result/3988104470.png" alt="3988104470.png">
</div>
</blockquote>
That's just showing off too ... although TBF it is coming from Keyville. 
 
We both got a grade B though. :)

antipodean

As long as when I move to property somewhere near Hokitika I can get comparable internet to what I currently have at home, I'll be happy.

Virgil

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="465537" data-time="1418698377">
<div>
That's just showing off too ... although TBF it is coming from Keyville. 
 
We both got a grade B though. :)
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
We have been here 5 1/2 years now, when we first arrived we were put on a waiting list to hook up to broadband. It took nearly a year, in which time we had to endure dial up.
Id say since then our speeds have quadrupled.
 
Your upload speeds arent that great though.

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="465540" data-time="1418699261">
<div>
We have been here 5 1/2 years now, when we first arrived we were put on a waiting list to hook up to broadband. It took nearly a year, in which time we had to endure dial up.
Id say since then our speeds have quadrupled.
 
Your upload speeds arent that great though.
</div>
</blockquote>
Neither are the download's ... Sydney has cabbage internet, and it took us over a month to get it hooked up in the city. Bonkers.

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="465534" data-time="1418698080">
<div>
<img src="http://www.speedtest.net/result/3988102889.png" alt="3988102889.png">
</div>
</blockquote>
 
You're a fluffybunny, and I hate you.
 
 
 
<img src="http://www.speedtest.net/result/3988166335.png" alt="3988166335.png">
 
The only time it will be better than this is between Christmas and New Year when no other bastard is around. I peaked at like 9MBps last year!

Virgil

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="465549" data-time="1418700893">
<div>
You're a fluffybunny, and I hate you.
 
 
 
<img src="http://www.speedtest.net/result/3988166335.png" alt="3988166335.png">
 
The only time it will be better than this is between Christmas and New Year when no other bastard is around. I peaked at like 9MBps last year!
</div>
</blockquote>
Wow didnt know how shit the interweb is in OZ.
Tell me again why so many kiwis are jumping the fence and shifting over?

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="465549" data-time="1418700893">
<div>
You're a fluffybunny, and I hate you.
 
 
 
<img src="http://www.speedtest.net/result/3988166335.png" alt="3988166335.png">
 
The only time it will be better than this is between Christmas and New Year when no other bastard is around. I peaked at like 9MBps last year!
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Yeah, that was from work and done just to piss you off.
 
This is home, 5.15pm as all the kiddies are on youtube.
 
<img src="http://www.speedtest.net/result/3988219133.png" alt="3988219133.png">

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="465551" data-time="1418701478">
<div>
Wow didnt know how shit the interweb is in OZ.
Tell me again why so many kiwis are jumping the fence and shifting over?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
That's kind of the point. As the gap widens further there will be plenty of Oz dwellers deciding that maybe NZ is the place to run their business from.

Crucial

Those Oz ones from Nick and Nepia show almost no upload speed at all. The ISP must be choking the up to squeeze out as much down as they can. They will be screwed as soon as their customers wake up to the opportunities of cloud and providing services from uploading.

Virgil

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="465553" data-time="1418703521">
<div>
That's kind of the point. As the gap widens further there will be plenty of Oz dwellers deciding that maybe NZ is the place to run their business from.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
I would never consider living anywhere without decent speeds, its like checking the quality of the water and who your electricity supplier is.
 
Crucial is that ADSL2/VDSL or fibre your running off?

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="465554" data-time="1418704587">
<div>
Those Oz ones from Nick and Nepia show almost no upload speed at all. The ISP must be choking the up to squeeze out as much down as they can. They will be screwed as soon as their customers wake up to the opportunities of cloud and providing services from uploading.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
That's the idea behind NBN - the Fibre-To-The-Node plan is going to deliver minimal benefits to upload because copper. Fibre was meant to take us from Asymmetrical DSL to something more useful

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="465558" data-time="1418704923">I would never consider living anywhere without decent speeds, its like checking the quality of the water and who your electricity supplier is. 
Crucial is that ADSL2/VDSL or fibre your running off?</blockquote>
 
VDSL at about 300m from the cabinet. Around the maximums you'll get anyway. 
Nick, that is copper with FTTN. You don't need FTTH for decent speed but that's about the current limit.

antipodean

Crucial

I assume that is on coax is it Antipodean? I think they call is hybrid fibre over there. The stuff laid for cable TV originally like the Saturn/voda network in Welly and ChCh over here. 
Great speeds at present but little room for future improvements. Damn sight better than the shit Nick is getting.

antipodean

Nah, just VDSL2. Hopefully we'll be upgraded to fibre soon.

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="465586" data-time="1418720151">
<div>
Nah, just VDSL2. Hopefully we'll be upgraded to fibre soon.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
That's a great profile for VDSL then. Must be close to the node for that (probably in building if a multi dwelling situation).
You don't really need fibre for some time at those speeds unless you are planning on live streaming your activities to the outside world in HD ;)
VOD is going to be by far the biggest driver in speed requirements and uptake. It won't be long until everyone in the house wants to be watching an HD stream of their selected viewing at the same time.
You need around 6Mbps dedicated to the stream for one HD show so ADSL speeds are going to struggle with multiple users. VOD providers also want to guarantee a certain quality for their subscribers so there is demand from the supply side as well.
We are certainly heading down the right path in NZ with FTTH. Lots of room for future proofing when you are building a network where you can't yet imagine the tech in a household that would get close to using the capacity you are providing.

Kirwan

I got my fibre a few weeks ago, and averages 90m down and 20m up. Reason I can't show my pretty picture? Bloody thing has been down since Friday. Sigh.

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="465558" data-time="1418704923">
<div>
I would never consider living anywhere without decent speeds, its like checking the quality of the water and who your electricity supplier is.
 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
It's amazing how many people say that internet connection is vital for them yet don't check the situation before building/buying/moving.
There is often some idiot moaning in the paper about how he's trying to run a web based business from his home (which turns out to be a lifestyle block 3km out of town) yet struggles with international time zones conflicting with heavy usage periods on his ADSL connection etc etc. 
That's like trying to run a truck distribution depot from a property down an unsealed road, through a residential suburb and onto choked commuter routes. You simply wouldn't even attempt it. You'd put your depot close to the highway.
I would be very happy to leave Wellington and live in the backblocks in the South Island, contracting services for work for 3 days a week to support myself but to pitch a good business case to the boss for that I'd need a VDSL connection minimum.

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