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Which president let China into the WTO?
President Bill Clinton
U.S. President Bill Clinton called Beijing's accession to the WTO “the most significant opportunity that we have had to create positive change in China since the 1970s” and argued that it would “commit China to play by the rules of the international trading system.”It's awesome!!!!
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@frank said in US Politics:
Which president let China into the WTO?
President Bill Clinton
U.S. President Bill Clinton called Beijing's accession to the WTO “the most significant opportunity that we have had to create positive change in China since the 1970s” and argued that it would “commit China to play by the rules of the international trading system.”It's awesome!!!!
And on the other hand Trump was lauded by some for reaching out to North Korea. While that was a worthwhile attempt it’s not been anything of a measurable success.
My point here is not to praise or lambast either, more that such moves should be viewed by what they were trying to achieve. Was that worthwhile?
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@catogrande said in US Politics:
@frank said in US Politics:
Which president let China into the WTO?
President Bill Clinton
U.S. President Bill Clinton called Beijing's accession to the WTO “the most significant opportunity that we have had to create positive change in China since the 1970s” and argued that it would “commit China to play by the rules of the international trading system.”It's awesome!!!!
And on the other hand Trump was lauded by some for reaching out to North Korea. While that was a worthwhile attempt it’s not been anything of a measurable success.
My point here is not to praise or lambast either, more that such moves should be viewed by what they were trying to achieve. Was that worthwhile?
I prefer to measure by harm caused.
North Korea diplomatic failure - so what.
Letting a country like China become so powerful = terrible. (though blame still passes on to Bush and Obama)As to motives -Trump - probably deluded and loved the show and attention.
- Bill Clinton - the corporate democrat that he was and his subsequent
pay-offs by them to his "foundation". I think we all know his
motives. -
Yep. In hindsight it's easier to judge how successful a POTUS has been and how well he/she came to make their decisions.
LBJ was seen as a poor President at the time, but is now seen as one of the more impressive of the bunch.
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@victor-meldrew said in US Politics:
Yep. In hindsight it's easier to judge how successful a POTUS has been and how well he/she came to make their decisions.
LBJ was seen as a poor President at the time, but is now seen as one of the more impressive of the bunch.
Not to mention Nixon. Did a lot of great stuff. Mending relations with China, detente with USSR, getting out of Vietnam. However, Watergate, which most annoyingly has resulted in every minor scandal being dubbed as something-gate.
Pisses me off. Oops sorry. Wrong thread.
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@catogrande said in US Politics:
@frank said in US Politics:
Which president let China into the WTO?
President Bill Clinton
U.S. President Bill Clinton called Beijing's accession to the WTO “the most significant opportunity that we have had to create positive change in China since the 1970s” and argued that it would “commit China to play by the rules of the international trading system.”It's awesome!!!!
And on the other hand Trump was lauded by some for reaching out to North Korea. While that was a worthwhile attempt it’s not been anything of a measurable success.
My point here is not to praise or lambast either, more that such moves should be viewed by what they were trying to achieve. Was that worthwhile?
'One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.' — Milton Friedman
Bill Clinton was singularly the worst thing to happen to the working man in the USA.
Trump in my estimation will be remembered for lowering the office, the attempted insurrection and not much else. Unaligned political scholars (if such a thing exists in 30 years) will discuss how he was a victim of the most contrived and sustained partisan media attack.
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@antipodean said in US Politics:
@catogrande said in US Politics:
@frank said in US Politics:
Which president let China into the WTO?
President Bill Clinton
U.S. President Bill Clinton called Beijing's accession to the WTO “the most significant opportunity that we have had to create positive change in China since the 1970s” and argued that it would “commit China to play by the rules of the international trading system.”It's awesome!!!!
And on the other hand Trump was lauded by some for reaching out to North Korea. While that was a worthwhile attempt it’s not been anything of a measurable success.
My point here is not to praise or lambast either, more that such moves should be viewed by what they were trying to achieve. Was that worthwhile?
'One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.' — Milton Friedman
In the long run that is the only measure, but if that was the only criteria at the point of making important decisions then there would be little risk taking, perhaps no reaching out to traditional opponents. Many big decisions have been bad ones in hindsight and really Friedman’s quote is entirely based on hindsight.
Bill Clinton was singularly the worst thing to happen to the working man in the USA.
Well, like that’s just your opinion, man. Apologies to the Dude. I’m no fan of Slick Willy but that’s a long bow you’re drawing.
Trump in my estimation will be remembered for lowering the office, the attempted insurrection and not much else. Unaligned political scholars (if such a thing exists in 30 years) will discuss how he was a victim of the most contrived and sustained partisan media attack.
To my mind that is true but is only a fraction of the picture. My feeling is that Trump will go down in history as the worst president ever. But, like that’s just my opinion, man.
😉
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@catogrande said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@catogrande said in US Politics:
@frank said in US Politics:
Which president let China into the WTO?
President Bill Clinton
U.S. President Bill Clinton called Beijing's accession to the WTO “the most significant opportunity that we have had to create positive change in China since the 1970s” and argued that it would “commit China to play by the rules of the international trading system.”It's awesome!!!!
And on the other hand Trump was lauded by some for reaching out to North Korea. While that was a worthwhile attempt it’s not been anything of a measurable success.
My point here is not to praise or lambast either, more that such moves should be viewed by what they were trying to achieve. Was that worthwhile?
'One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.' — Milton Friedman
In the long run that is the only measure, but if that was the only criteria at the point of making important decisions then there would be little risk taking, perhaps no reaching out to traditional opponents. Many big decisions have been bad ones in hindsight and really Friedman’s quote is entirely based on hindsight.
Hard to judge impact without evidence.
Bill Clinton was singularly the worst thing to happen to the working man in the USA.
Well, like that’s just your opinion, man. Apologies to the Dude. I’m no fan of Slick Willy but that’s a long bow you’re drawing.
Not really. Plenty of analysis showing decline in economic mobility, high-wage manufacturing job losses and wage stagnation resulting from NAFTA, the >$100 billion turn around in Mexico US trade, etc.
Trump in my estimation will be remembered for lowering the office, the attempted insurrection and not much else. Unaligned political scholars (if such a thing exists in 30 years) will discuss how he was a victim of the most contrived and sustained partisan media attack.
To my mind that is true but is only a fraction of the picture. My feeling is that Trump will go down in history as the worst president ever.
On the basis of what?
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Basically on the basis you outlined yourself in regard to how he will be remembered which will be media led and partly due to recency bias as I think maybe you suffer with regard to Clinton.
You will note I did not say I thought he was the worst President ever, just that I felt he would go down as the worst ever.
There was little of note that went right during his term and much that went wrong, mainly in terms of how divisive and vitriolic the political scene became. While this is not solely down to him, it seems to have hit its nadir during his presidency and he will own that. The bombastic nature of many of his claims, the repeated lies, the general non-presidential behaviour, the Capitol riots. All of these things will go down in history, whereas the people who adore him will die out.
The record books show win, lose or draw, not how the game was played.
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@catogrande said in US Politics:
There was little of note that went right during his term and much that went wrong, mainly in terms of how divisive and vitriolic the political scene became. While this is not solely down to him, it seems to have hit its nadir during his presidency and he will own that
Sums up Obama
The bombastic nature of many of his claims, the repeated lies, the general non-presidential behaviour, the Capitol riots.
Sounds like Trump
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@catogrande said in US Politics:
Basically on the basis you outlined yourself in regard to how he will be remembered which will be media led and partly due to recency bias as I think maybe you suffer with regard to Clinton.
You will note I did not say I thought he was the worst President ever, just that I felt he would go down as the worst ever.
There was little of note that went right during his term and much that went wrong, mainly in terms of how divisive and vitriolic the political scene became. While this is not solely down to him, it seems to have hit its nadir during his presidency and he will own that. The bombastic nature of many of his claims, the repeated lies, the general non-presidential behaviour, the Capitol riots. All of these things will go down in history, whereas the people who adore him will die out.
The record books show win, lose or draw, not how the game was played.
The bolded bit: not sure we're there yet.
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@voodoo said in US Politics:
In very simplistic terms, I thought Trump did a fair bit better than expected on foreign policy, and about as awful as expected on domestic stuff.
Tough gig, but being a piston wristed gibbon doesn't help your profile.
I agree with this, partly because I kinda expected WW III to be a likely outcome of a Trump Presidency.
In the end he wasn't quite as much of a disaster as I expected.
In contrast, Biden is waay worse than I thought he could be.
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@voodoo said in US Politics:
In very simplistic terms, I thought Trump did a fair bit better than expected on foreign policy, and about as awful as expected on domestic stuff.
Tough gig, but being a piston wristed gibbon doesn't help your profile.
A fair summation imo. Long term perception may be a different thing though.
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@victor-meldrew said in US Politics:
@catogrande said in US Politics:
There was little of note that went right during his term and much that went wrong, mainly in terms of how divisive and vitriolic the political scene became. While this is not solely down to him, it seems to have hit its nadir during his presidency and he will own that
Sums up Obama
Yep, but Obama was more measured in his rhetoric plus he had the media onside and he knew it.
The bombastic nature of many of his claims, the repeated lies, the general non-presidential behaviour, the Capitol riots.
Sounds like Trump
Yep again.
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@booboo said in US Politics:
@voodoo said in US Politics:
In very simplistic terms, I thought Trump did a fair bit better than expected on foreign policy, and about as awful as expected on domestic stuff.
Tough gig, but being a piston wristed gibbon doesn't help your profile.
I agree with this, partly because I kinda expected WW III to be a likely outcome of a Trump Presidency.
In the end he wasn't quite as much of a disaster as I expected.
In contrast, Biden is waay worse than I thought he could be.
Liberal media did quite a number on you (perhaps).
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