Speeding
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@bones said in Grumpy Old Man:
@victor-meldrew said in Grumpy Old Man:
there has to be warning signs that cameras are in operation and all camera/cars must be conspicuously marked/bright yellow
I do find all these rules fairly odd - I just can't compute why the police should have to meet all these strict points just to nick you for going over the speed limit.
I think it's to avoid any suspicion that it's about raising money and all about road safety. If you get caught speeding here, you can generally go on a road-safety course and avoid the fine and (I think) the points on your licence.
Just as Drink Driving became socially unacceptable decades ago, speeding is moving the same way.
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@antipodean said in Grumpy Old Man:
I've actually had a HWP car sitting between the dual lane divided highway turn on its lights and turn them off again when I slowed down to the speed limit. This on a designated dual penalty (double fine, double demerit points) in an area well known for enforcement. I.e. the stretch of highway servicing the NSW police academy.
My first experience with a UK traffic cop was a officer on a police bike pulling me over for speeding on my new BMW R100S and advising me to slow down as the stock Metzler tyres were shit in the rain.
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@antipodean said in Grumpy Old Man:
I've actually had a HWP car sitting between the dual lane divided highway turn on its lights and turn them off again when I slowed down to the speed limit. This on a designated dual penalty (double fine, double demerit points) in an area well known for enforcement. I.e. the stretch of highway servicing the NSW police academy.
The Police have designated high visibility taskings where they are tasked to do exactly as you describe. That is to be purely visible and not actively engage unless there was a high risk to someone's safety.
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@victor-meldrew said in Grumpy Old Man:
@antipodean said in Grumpy Old Man:
@hooroo said in Grumpy Old Man:
@antipodean said in Grumpy Old Man:
@majorrage said in Grumpy Old Man:
@dogmeat said in Grumpy Old Man:
@snowy speed limits are up the crapper. Some are too high, a helluva lot are too low.
Why do we have 110 Hamilton - Cambridge but not other parts of Waikato Expressway or Albany -Puhoi.
They're talking about making Taupo - Napier 80 kph. I get there are a fair number of fatalities on that road and many of them are speed related but I'm betting where speed is involved there are other factors as well. Plus I reckon they'll be well over the current limit and won't be the type of driver who drops from 130 to 110 because the new limit has gone down 20 kph.
Is any other country as strict as NZ on speed limits & advertising / enforcement of them?
Victoria. Victorian motorists are regularly ticketed for exceeding the limit by as little as 2km/h
Via camera only or Police pull over too? That is crazy
Both. And they hide so you can't see them.
Victorian motorists are regularly ticketed for exceeding the limit by as little as 2km/h
That is crazy. Doesn't it negatively impact the relationship the public have with the police and fuel suspicion it's all about raising money and not road safety?
New Zealand Police removed their 10kmh tolerance last year, firstly without telling anyone (Mrs AWL picked up a $30 ticket for going 108kmh in a 100kmh zone in the Waikato on a fine day, straight stretch of road in May last year - at that time the policy hadn't been announced).
When they finally announced the policy to remove the tolerance this year, Police then tried to deny there had ever been an accepted level of tolerance, which a stuff.co.nz article completely rebuffed with lots of documented times that the tolerance had been referenced and made the Assistant Commissioner look like an idiot
On more than a handful of occasions during my time in the job, we went to speak to seemingly normal members of the public who opened our dialogue with a rant about a time they were unfairly ticketed by the Police. We even had people refuse to speak to us because they were that anti-police as a direct result of interactions they'd had with highway patrol or traffic cops.
Road enforcement is definitely a vital part of law enforcement, given the high road toll we have, but it's also often the only interaction otherwise law abiding citizens might have with the Police at any given time, so if they're dealt with by someone who isn't a people person or who is rude or condescending toward them, it can certainly impact that relationship, as I've seen first hand.
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Police then tried to deny there had ever been an accepted level of tolerance, which a stuff.co.nz article completely rebuffed with lots of documented times that the tolerance had been referenced and made the Assistant Commissioner look like an idiot
Or a liar. Why is she still in such an important job?
On more than a handful of occasions during my time in the job, we went to speak to seemingly normal members of the public who opened our dialogue with a rant about a time they were unfairly ticketed by the Police. We even had people refuse to speak to us because they were that anti-police as a direct result of interactions they'd had with highway patrol or traffic cops.
Down to the attitude of the clowns who used to do traffic enforcement for the Transport Ministry still being part of the current culture? Plenty of serious Police scandals in the UK in the last few years and it's probably pretty much down to the sensible attitude of the average copper that they still get so much support from the public.
Road enforcement is definitely a vital part of law enforcement, given the high road toll we have, but it's also often the only interaction otherwise law abiding citizens might have with the Police at any given time, so if they're dealt with by someone who isn't a people person or who is rude or condescending toward them, it can certainly impact that relationship, as I've seen first hand.
In the UK the emphasis seems to be on keeping the public onside on how and why the law is enforced. The focus is always on safety and not just enforcing speed limits - e.g. there are strict rules on visibility and locations of speed cameras so the public know they are there for safety reasons only. And if you do get caught speeding, you can generally go on on a road safety course instead of a fine and points on your licence.
It seems to work as the UK has a very low death toll.
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Have you been on one of those speed awareness courses? I found the one I went on to be tedious, platitudinous and full of holes where they were trying to use data to support “speed kills” when the bald data would suggest otherwise. Of course to get the true picture you would need to look into the data but there was no attempt at that.
I rather let myself down at the end when we were all asked for the one big take-away we had from the course. “Next time I’ll take the points”.
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@catogrande said in Grumpy Old Man:
“Next time I’ll take the points”.
Fucking classic!
"Speed doesn't kill, it's the sudden stop at the end"
Full disclosure - my Dad died when I was 16 months, with Mum pregnant with my sister, from speeding into a tree. So yeah speeding kills, stick to the limits IMO
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Never been on one, but my neighbour has and actually found it useful and not patronising at all. Told him that research shows many drivers don't deliberately speed but don't make themselves aware enough of the speed limit and gave tips on how to be more aware. Perhaps the courses have improved?
I found the one I went on to be tedious, platitudinous and full of holes where they were trying to use data to support “speed kills” when the bald data would suggest otherwise.
I can imagine them using bald statistics as truth. The words "regression to mean" is usually enough to confuse them...
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@victor-meldrew yeah I've only ever heard that it was actually QI learning how to tell what the limit is by the road type.
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@machpants said in Grumpy Old Man:
Fucking classic!
"Speed doesn't kill, it's the sudden stop at the end"I attribute my still being on this Earth to learning how to ride fast on a racetrack and not on a public highway. And as alcohol was an absolute no-no on the track, it became the same on the road.
Don't get me wrong, I didn't always keep to the speed limit, but I was always aware of the risks and left the dare-devil speed-freak stuff to the relative safety of Manfield.
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@aucklandwarlord Interesting to read that.
I sort of understand NZ's approach to it given the higher road toll and lack of other available options in many places, but I've never been able to reconcile complete separation in reality from what's dangerous vs what's illegal.
If you are driving up the Hauraki plains at 9pm on a Tuesday night at 107 km/hr you will face a larger fine than if you go past a school at 24 km/hr (assuming it's a 20k zone) at 3:05 pm. It just makes no sense to me.
One is a situation where you've likely not noticed due to the tedious ness of the drive that your speed has crept up slightly. The other is where you are doing something really fucking stupid and putting other peoples, namely children, life at risk with your complete recklessness.
Fast driving does not necessarily mean unsafe driving & slow driving does not necessarily mean safe driving. It drives me up the wall. I think the balance they have here in the UK is much better.
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@majorrage One of the things I've noticed in the UK over the last few years is how silly speeding (in 30mph areas for example) has become as socially-unacceptable as drink-driving.
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@victor-meldrew said in Grumpy Old Man:
On more than a handful of occasions during my time in the job, we went to speak to seemingly normal members of the public who opened our dialogue with a rant about a time they were unfairly ticketed by the Police. We even had people refuse to speak to us because they were that anti-police as a direct result of interactions they'd had with highway patrol or traffic cops.
Down to the attitude of the clowns who used to do traffic enforcement for the Transport Ministry still being part of the current culture? Plenty of serious Police scandals in the UK in the last few years and it's probably pretty much down to the sensible attitude of the average copper that they still get so much support from the public.
Yes and no. The "ernies" (named so because their QIDs given all started with an E, so easily identified post-merger) started to retired in the mid 2000's. I would put it down to the general demographic of traffic cops either being (1) people sent there because they were unsuitable for whatever reason for frontline, (2) people rotated there who didn't want to be there, (3) burnt out or lazy cops who went there because they wanted a cushy gig, with very little shift work and the ability to collect their quota within a few hours and then just cruise.
Don't get me wrong, I know a lot of great cops who ended up on traffic during their rotation period (I managed to avoid it thankfully), and the job would be shit in terms of having argumentative members of the public day in and day out, but there's certainly always been a groundswell within the ranks that the MOT and Police should be two different entities.
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@victor-meldrew said in Grumpy Old Man:
@majorrage One of the things I've noticed in the UK over the last few years is how silly speeding (in 30mph areas for example) has become as socially-unacceptable as drink-driving.
I’d go further than that. I’d say speeding through residential areas is viewed worse than drink driving.
I also think rules should be defined more at the car level (I would say that). An M3 doing 85 mph is a lot safer than a Transit.
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@majorrage said in Grumpy Old Man:
@aucklandwarlord Interesting to read that.
I sort of understand NZ's approach to it given the higher road toll and lack of other available options in many places, but I've never been able to reconcile complete separation in reality from what's dangerous vs what's illegal.
If you are driving up the Hauraki plains at 9pm on a Tuesday night at 107 km/hr you will face a larger fine than if you go past a school at 24 km/hr (assuming it's a 20k zone) at 3:05 pm. It just makes no sense to me.
One is a situation where you've likely not noticed due to the tedious ness of the drive that your speed has crept up slightly. The other is where you are doing something really fucking stupid and putting other peoples, namely children, life at risk with your complete recklessness.
Fast driving does not necessarily mean unsafe driving & slow driving does not necessarily mean safe driving. It drives me up the wall. I think the balance they have here in the UK is much better.
Hard to disagree with that. There are so many strange contradictions in traffic enforcement - I question why "unaccompanied driver on a learner licence" isn't dealt with the same way as "driving while disqualified" or drink driving. Effectively it's a fine and demerit offence, despite the fact the person has passed no formal practical test to say that they're competent to operate a vehicle which could potentially kill someone. At least someone driving while disqualified normally actually has the skills to drive, they're just not allowed to.
I've always thought that driving should be something they could bring external people in to teach at high school, so kids can get a licence without have the opportunity to get one before going into the workforce. That way, there is a standardised minimum amount of training given to every student, and there is very little excuse for not having at least a restricted licence. Surely for most kids, it's more useful than learning Shakespeare.
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@aucklandwarlord said in Grumpy Old Man:
there's certainly always been a groundswell within the ranks that the MOT and Police should be two different entities.
As long as the Traffic cops are competent, does it matter?
When I started riding in the UK, the difference between the UK and NZ traffic police was startling. The UK motorbike cops in particular were serious motorcyclists who understood and had an affinity with other riders - unlike their NZ counterparts. And don't get me started on the Lower Hutt traffic police...
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@majorrage said in Grumpy Old Man:
I also think rules should be defined more at the car level (I would say that). An M3 doing 85 mph is a lot safer than a Transit.
It's a great point, but hard to legislate for, I guess.
White Van Man causes me more angst that any other fuckwit on the road. Yeah, I can easily outpace them when they sit on my arse , but why should I need to on wet roads?
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@aucklandwarlord said in Grumpy Old Man:
I've always thought that driving should be something they could bring external people in to teach at high school, so kids can get a licence without have the opportunity to get one before going into the workforce. That way, there is a standardised minimum amount of training given to every student, and there is very little excuse for not having at least a restricted licence. Surely for most kids, it's more useful than learning Shakespeare.
We used to have that back in my day. There was a driving programme that operated through high schools, can't remember the name, but the idea was to provide cheap but competent licence training. I believe it was govt subsidised too.
Another one of these things that was 'privitised' and as predicted many lower socio-economic groups now just don't bother with training and are happy to take fines that get paid off at a $ a week from their benefit. False economies. -
@majorrage said in Grumpy Old Man:
@victor-meldrew said in Grumpy Old Man:
@majorrage One of the things I've noticed in the UK over the last few years is how silly speeding (in 30mph areas for example) has become as socially-unacceptable as drink-driving.
I’d go further than that. I’d say speeding through residential areas is viewed worse than drink driving.
I also think rules should be defined more at the car level (I would say that). An M3 doing 85 mph is a lot safer than a Transit.
The pragmatism part should be 'safe driving'.
As an example the Brighton Rd last few miles before reaching the M25 is a four lane wide straight rd with no houses for much of the distance yet 24 hours a day is monitored by average speed cameras for it's length with a limit at 40mph. At 5am driving down to Gatwick with no other cars on the road you can't tell me that is dangerous to drive at 50mph.
NB: mind you those average speed things are a bit of a sham I think.
