Foster, Robertson etc
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@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Why wait until then? Can they not look retroactively at the last 10 games and say, "we phucked up by reappointing Foz. 5 from 10 with 2 coming from the USA and Italy is not good enough and now a series loss is just unacceptable".
That ship has sailed.
Changes must be made. We need new direction, game plans and methodology otherwise the best we can hope for is a QF exit.
We all agree on that. But it's how you best do that which is the issue.
If shouldn't have sailed though.
It has though and that's the reality.
If they draw the series in Africa, Foz over the last 12 tests will still at best hold a 50% record. If they lose 0-2 it will be 42%. That ship should certainly still be in dock and ready take the current coaching group excluding Ryan to the underworld. When is enough, enough?
Selective use of statistics there. E.g. Foster's overall win ratio in 2021 from 15 Tests (losses to Ireland and France and a narrow loss to SA) was 80%.
I still believe we have the best ball players across the park in the world but we can't unify them as one collective force save for 15-20 mins.
No we don't and haven't had for some time. Look at the U20 results and the quality of players in France for example. We don't have all these wonder players you think we have. If we did, the Whitelock & Retallick replacements would be oven-ready.
There's no what ifs. Razor has to come in.
Magic solution which won't solve the deeper issues.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team...but, with the changes to add Schmidt and Ryan, if this doesn't workoesnt show any improvement to our structure, holy hecka...
One would hope NZR are working on a plan for that scenario.
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@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Damned with faint praise. Hopefully this tosser will be out after the governance review, too.
I might have disagreed with Steve Tew on a few things, but I reckon he was comfortably the best NZR CEO of the past 25 years or whenever the job was created.
Where's Hamish Riach when we need him? (Ashburton I think?).
This sounds like chchfanatics scenario might be on the money.
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@Winger said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team..
Wasn't it? And what was his preferred team?
edit Plumtree was I think. And Mooar was expensive to obtain if Foster wasn't that keen on him
We will never know - because of a stupid recruitment process that required people to put together a "gang of coaches" rather than appointing a Head Coach and then appointing the best available assistants.
Can't remember whether this should be hung on Tew or Robinson, but whomever is responsible deserves monumental boot up the arse.
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Well said, Chris B.
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Thread seems to have turned into a "Robinson must go too"..thread
Something doesn't seem rosy with NZR but everything is so secretive I don't know how individuals can be singled out But perhaps they need an external ex-coaching/review panel of advisors ..
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@nostrildamus said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Thread seems to have turned into a "Robinson must go too"..thread
Robinson and the Board appear to have poo fingered most things over the last few years. The governance has been shocking. THe stakeholder management has been shocking. The comms after a series loss has been shocking. We're a goddamn joke off the field at the moment,
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@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@MrDenmore Hansen should have resigned after the 2016 EOYT. He lead the decline of AB rugby and its steadily since.
What decline? Or do you consider the retirement of senior, probably one in a lifetime in terms of their combinations, players to be the coaches responsibility? Replacing those players as best he can is the coaches responsibility, but the quality of cattle isn't consistent and doesn't guarantee performance levels will remain unchanged.
Given the loss of McCaw/Carter/Nonu/Smith (and to a lesser extent Mealamu - we lost his experience but he was nearing the end of his career) we played some very good rugby with Hansen in charge (less so when he appeared to hand over the reigns to Fozzie) in 2017/2018 and I would argue that injuries (BBBR and McKenzie) and circumstance (cancellation of final pool games meant knockout games were tougher against well rested opposition) he did OK. The opening RWC game against South Africa without BBBR always looked difficult and Hansen navigated it with some ease.
Looking at the 2015/2016 squads, the thing that jumps out at me is how little progress we have made in some areas over 6 years - centres have been a string of injuries (largely outside of the AB setup so difficult to blame Hansen), we have made very little progress on the locking front and under Hansen, never found a 6 that worked well individually or with the rest of the team.
Fortunately, Fozzie has found Reiko can play OK at centre because outside of Will Jordan in the backs, I'm not sure what Fozzie will be handing over to the next coach in 2024 from the current playing 15 between retirements (tight 5, Smith, Beauden) and under performance.
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@nostrildamus said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Thread seems to have turned into a "Robinson must go too"..thread
Something doesn't seem rosy with NZR but everything is so secretive I don't know how individuals can be singled out But perhaps they need an external ex-coaching/review panel of advisors ..
Rugby governance has always been dicey - the KPI's based on stocks of gin, tonic, ice and lemon have never been particularly beneficial to the game but are accepted universally across the IRB and other countries as all that matters.
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@PecoTrain The ABs have sometimes had a team without stars but they have always competed. Now, they have a team of talented individuals but are not in the competition. You do the maths.
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So....where to from here for the team
Win both tests and we are stuck with lame duck Foster through to the WC.
Lose both tests and Foster may well be gone...
Win one-lose one......sheesh anybodys guess......cross fingers and hope like helll??? -
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@junior said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Personally the 2007 quarter final
That's interesting, the ABs were dominant in that game. It just the ref decided not to ref what was going on
We completely lost the plot in that game and had zero on-field management and ability to adapt. Some of the dumbest, brainless rugby an AB team has played IMO.
We actually played quite smart, I thought, in the period after the yellow card - got the ball in the right area of the field, dominated possession, went forward up the guts with our forwards, soaked up the clock, and managed to bag a 5-pointer. The really dumb thing was that we didn't then get away from that when we went back up to 15 on the pitch and the French and barnes just started ignoring the breakdown rules, which meant the up the guts strategy became less effective.
I was there (sadly). My abiding memory was us hammering their line and not having the nous to go for drop goals. Dan sure as heck exorcised that little itch in 2015 though
My abiding memory after the game was a loud-mouth bloke in an England shirt taunting AB supporters and being decked by another bloke in a Saffa shirt. At least one of then was a Rugby fan.
Mine was lots of Irish doing the same thing.
Hated their rugby team ever since. Somewhat more difficult now.
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@MajorRage said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@junior said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Personally the 2007 quarter final
That's interesting, the ABs were dominant in that game. It just the ref decided not to ref what was going on
We completely lost the plot in that game and had zero on-field management and ability to adapt. Some of the dumbest, brainless rugby an AB team has played IMO.
We actually played quite smart, I thought, in the period after the yellow card - got the ball in the right area of the field, dominated possession, went forward up the guts with our forwards, soaked up the clock, and managed to bag a 5-pointer. The really dumb thing was that we didn't then get away from that when we went back up to 15 on the pitch and the French and barnes just started ignoring the breakdown rules, which meant the up the guts strategy became less effective.
I was there (sadly). My abiding memory was us hammering their line and not having the nous to go for drop goals. Dan sure as heck exorcised that little itch in 2015 though
My abiding memory after the game was a loud-mouth bloke in an England shirt taunting AB supporters and being decked by another bloke in a Saffa shirt. At least one of then was a Rugby fan.
Mine was lots of Irish doing the same thing.
Hated their rugby team ever since. *Somewhat more difficult now.
Yep hated them after that and for some of the carry on since but they’ve massively earnt my respect for their team given what they’ve done and the way they’ve gone about it in the last month or so. Would not begrudge them a RWC victory next year, but don’t think they’ll do it because of French home advantage and vagaries of the draw
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@MajorRage said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Hated their rugby team ever since. Somewhat more difficult now.
There's always Sexton...
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It's not X-factor the All Blacks are desperate for in the midfield
For the last six years, the All Blacks have seemingly erred away from technical skills in favour of X-factor.
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@Victor-Meldrew Peter Stringers seagull impression appealing for penalties at pretty much every ruck or maul used to grate me no end.
@stodders not sure Havili qualifies as an x-factor player.
Goodhue, Havili, ALB are all more in the technical mould than x-factor, and when fit I reckon one of these definitely starts.
For other positions I agree, we are picking players and have a gameplan that seems to rely on x-factor or a moreso a moment of brilliance to open the game up.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
When you unpick the "Foster must go" argument and ask how many Tests you'd give a Foster-replacement to improve things (like the win percentage) before he too gets sacked, things get a bit more vague and/or complicated for some reason. Really can't think why if the quality of the coach is a key problem.
You asked this on the other thread, and it's a great challenge.
The consensus was it's not just the losing, but the way we're losing. We seem miles behind other nations, particularly England France Ireland in our attacking and defensive patterns. Our players no longer seem to be better than the opposition at the core skills and vision.
So, a better record, and/or visible improvements in the way we play.
If Foster had the team playing well and we lost to a better side, most folk would accept that as steps on the journey. Right now we're seeing players seem to get worse in the AB environment; muddled thinking, poor skills, woeful kicking, lack of clarity of action and gameplan, and slow speed of thought.
Great post.
NZR were so quick to fire Mitchell and Deans who went through a clean sweep of the Tri-Nations, put 50 points on SA and Australia away. Won the Bledisloe and then lost one game, the semi and were fired. I think it was the only second game they lost that season. I think the All Blacks will be stronger for the changes but a 0-2 loss might be what the All Blacks really need.
Mitch's dismissal was less to do with results and more to do with the division he created with every aspect of NZ rugby, players, administrators, media, public, sponsors. He pissed everybody off.
In Keith Quinn's book on 2003 (Journey to Nowhere) there's the story of a high ranking NZRU official who, when asked about the coach's future and what would happen if they won the World Cup, said something like "That would make things, umm, awkward".
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
For other positions I agree, we are picking players and have a gameplan that seems to rely on x-factor or a moreso a moment of brilliance to open the game up.
What you've said makes a heck of a lot of sense and is almost a penny-drop moment for me. Explains why when we stop the fancy-Dan stuff and go back to the basics when behind, we seem to go really well - e.g. 3rd 20 against France and the 2nd 20 in Ireland III
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@booboo said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Mitch's dismissal was less to do with results and more to do with the division he created with every aspect of NZ rugby, players, administrators, media, public, sponsors. He pissed everybody off.
He also pissed off a lot of people like Josh Kronfeld by picking McCaw out of nowhere and "giving All Black jerseys out too easily" so I guess we can forgive him that one...
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@booboo said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Mitch's dismissal was less to do with results and more to do with the division he created with every aspect of NZ rugby, players, administrators, media, public, sponsors. He pissed everybody off.
He also pissed off a lot of people like Josh Kronfeld by picking McCaw out of nowhere and "giving All Black jerseys out too easily" so I guess we can forgive him that one...
I blame Deans…
