Backline defence captain
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The best teams have them. Conrad was the man in the last RWC winning team.
Fickou is for France and Am for Boks.
Can't see we have one right now.
For second Kellaway try our alignment was 15[12]-13-10-11-22[15].
No wonder he could stroll over.
For me ALB when he returns is the most promising prospect.
Which means at 12 if TWM are set on Rieko at 13.
Or maybe 13 if someone makes 12 their own from here. -
@pakman said in Backline defence captain:
The best teams have them. Conrad was the man in the last RWC winning team.
Fickou is for France and Am for Boks.
Can't see we have one right now.
For second Kellaway try our alignment was 15[12]-13-10-11-22[15].
No wonder he could stroll over.
For me ALB when he returns is the most promising prospect.
Which means at 12 if TWM are set on Rieko at 13.
Or maybe 13 if someone makes 12 their own from here.Let's see if JB can do it
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@pakman I've got ALB pretty much locked into my first choice midfield - I'm just not sure whether at 12 or 13.
Right now, I'd be somewhat tempted to push Rieko to 11.
Jack Goodhue also floating around as a wildcard. He could be starting or he may not even make the RWC squad. It's coming up two years since Jack played a test and we won't have tests to waste building new combos next year.
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@Chris-B I think he woulda been the backline general, but I cant see him playing in Black again.
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ALB should be returning soon based on an earlier report. He was aiming for the BOP game, which is next weekend.
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@taniwharugby Hope you're wrong - Jack was massively promising at centre. Minimal error rate and one of those who just made the right decision consistently.
His diminished pace is a bit of a worry though.
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@Bovidae That's great news - hopefully he stays fit for the EOYT!!!
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@Chris-B said in Backline defence captain:
@pakman I've got ALB pretty much locked into my first choice midfield - I'm just not sure whether at 12 or 13.
Right now, I'd be somewhat tempted to push Rieko to 11.
Jack Goodhue also floating around as a wildcard. He could be starting or he may not even make the RWC squad. It's coming up two years since Jack played a test and we won't have tests to waste building new combos next year.
in my opinion only, a midfield of Havili and ALB lacks balance. Where is the threat that gives defenses kittens? At the moment we have the passing and kicking ability of Havili balanced with the threat of Ioane smoking you to the outside and disappearing in to the distance. ALB does not provide that threat, which means way more pressure on 10 and 12.
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@mariner4life Yeah - that's something of a concern that I don't disagree with.
But, can maybe be alleviated by using Ioane, Jordan and Jordie through the midfield.
Midfield is still a puzzle to be put together IMO - but, ALB is certainly one of the main pieces.
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@mariner4life said in Backline defence captain:
@Chris-B said in Backline defence captain:
@pakman I've got ALB pretty much locked into my first choice midfield - I'm just not sure whether at 12 or 13.
Right now, I'd be somewhat tempted to push Rieko to 11.
Jack Goodhue also floating around as a wildcard. He could be starting or he may not even make the RWC squad. It's coming up two years since Jack played a test and we won't have tests to waste building new combos next year.
in my opinion only, a midfield of Havili and ALB lacks balance. Where is the threat that gives defenses kittens? At the moment we have the passing and kicking ability of Havili balanced with the threat of Ioane smoking you to the outside and disappearing in to the distance. ALB does not provide that threat, which means way more pressure on 10 and 12.
Agree. Unless we have a compatible partner at 12 for ALB at 13 (ie a straight runner) the we may need to stick with what we have. ALB does provide excellent cover for either position though, like a much better version of QT.
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@Chris-B said in Backline defence captain:
@mariner4life Yeah - that's something of a concern that I don't disagree with.
But, can maybe be alleviated by using Ioane, Jordan and Jordie through the midfield.
Midfield is still a puzzle to be put together IMO - but, ALB is certainly one of the main pieces.
Ideally in the midfield I would like a triple threat player at twelve and a double threat at 13.
I have written to Santa. -
@Chris-B said in Backline defence captain:
@mariner4life Yeah - that's something of a concern that I don't disagree with.
But, can maybe be alleviated by using Ioane, Jordan and Jordie through the midfield.
Midfield is still a puzzle to be put together IMO - but, ALB is certainly one of the main pieces.
no secret i'm a fan of ALB. But over the last month i have been impressed with some of Havili's touches, and his ability to interchange with Mo'unga to mix up our attack.
Was very concerned with how fucking slow QT looked both trying to run in support and turning to chase in defense.
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@mariner4life Davy is going much better this year than he did at the end of last year, when I reckon he ran out of gas mentally.
Probably not surprising for a guy who in March 2021 was probably expecting to spend the year playing fullback for the Crusaders and the Mako.
He's very much a second-five rather than inside centre, though - and I'm still worried if he has to mark a huge munter in the opposition.
To refer to the OP - I'm not convinced either him or Rieko is the defensive KP we need.
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@Chris-B said in Backline defence captain:
@mariner4life Davy is going much better this year than he did at the end of last year, when I reckon he ran out of gas mentally.
Probably not surprising for a guy who in March 2021 was probably expecting to spend the year playing fullback for the Crusaders and the Mako.
He's very much a second-five rather than inside centre, though - and I'm still worried if he has to mark a huge munter in the opposition.
To refer to the OP - I'm not convinced either him or Rieko is the defensive KP we need.
i think they are using him differently as well. And he's not playing outside BB running him out of room and then shovelling shit at him
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@mariner4life you mean not using him to try and batter his way through, thats quite a novel approach on how to use a midfielder under 90kg
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@taniwharugby said in Backline defence captain:
@mariner4life you mean not using him to try and batter his way through, thats quite a novel approach on how to use a midfielder under 90kg
crazy aye?
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@taniwharugby He was more mid-90kgs - and he may even have packed on a few more kgs in the off-season (or should have tried to).
But, your point is still correct - 95kgs is a "little" midfielder.
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@Chris-B What is average these days, about 105 kg?
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BB and DMac both 10s that work better with a bail out option at 12. RM a touch better but I guess that he just has more experience in finding ways to not compromise the 12..
The original question is one of the reasons I am not a great fan of JB at 12. He doesn't do a good job directing from the back and plays his own game so putting him in the midfield only adds him closer. -
@Chris-B he's tall for only 95kg though. Not exactly a low center of gravity he has there.
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@Chris-B yeah I was just going by the Wiki entry at 88kg haha
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@Tim said in Backline defence captain:
@Chris-B What is average these days, about 105 kg?
Certainly over 100kgs.
Bovidae posted a video of ALB on the scales and he was something like 102.8kgs and you'd only class him as a middleweight.
SBW and Nonu were listed at 108kgs and looked it. There's a few who are bigger.
Big Bastard from France is listed at 120kgs, but maybe he's converted to prop!
Wiki says Levi Aumua is 118kgs, but that looks a bit much to me. No wonder he's a handful in NPC though!
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@Frye said in Backline defence captain:
@Chris-B he's tall for only 95kg though. Not exactly a low center of gravity he has there.
At best he's medium.
And when you select Smith and Mo'unga that is three smallish players in a row. Defences love it.Our defence has been average this year. Leaked a whole lotta points. Used to be if we hit 20, we won ... totally not the case any more
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@nzzp said in Backline defence captain:
@Frye said in Backline defence captain:
@Chris-B he's tall for only 95kg though. Not exactly a low center of gravity he has there.
At best he's medium.
And when you select Smith and Mo'unga that is three smallish players in a row. Defences love it.Our defence has been average this year. Leaked a whole lotta points. Used to be if we hit 20, we won ... totally not the case any more
A lot of the leaks is about system, not size. McLeod loves giving up metres
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@nzzp said in Backline defence captain:
@Frye said in Backline defence captain:
@Chris-B he's tall for only 95kg though. Not exactly a low center of gravity he has there.
At best he's medium.
And when you select Smith and Mo'unga that is three smallish players in a row. Defences love it.Our defence has been average this year. Leaked a whole lotta points. Used to be if we hit 20, we won ... totally not the case any more
The leaking is on the edges according to the stats.
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@nzzp Yeah - I don't think we've got any backs available right now who are elite defenders.
Maybe Jordie is at fullback.
I think ALB might be able to plug one of those holes - at a stretch Goodhue might plug the other.
But, then you go back to Mariner's point on offensive threat...
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@Chris-B said in Backline defence captain:
I think ALB might be able to plug one of those holes - at a stretch Goodhue might plug the other.
Goodhue was insanely good on defence against SA in his statement test in 2019 (I think the year's right) in Wellington. But post injury, do you back him to hold Lukhanyo Am? I'd be concerned ... it'd be shades of Jordie on the wing again (hee haw)
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@nzzp It's a definite concern - Jack's lack of pace got exposed a couple of times in Super rugby this year - though mostly he was able to cover for it.
The worry, I guess, is that we won't have much time to test it against test match opposition prior to RWC, so we might only get exposed when it really matters.
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@Chris-B said in Backline defence captain:
The worry, I guess, is that we won't have much time to test it against test match opposition prior to RWC, so we might only get exposed when it really matters.
think of the learnings!
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@pakman said in Backline defence captain:
Conrad was the man in the last RWC winning team
Agree. But he was replaced at HT wasn't he by SBW in the final.
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For those of you no longer playing or coaching, the modern vogue is to leave the opposition winger to the covering fullback. It provides the benefit of showing space, forcing passes and using the side line. It allows you to bunch and restrict the middle which is much harder to defend after a breach as a side line break can really only go one way. Breach the middle and you can go either way.
Currently our wingers look to position themselves to do neither, or make decisions that expose them having made no impact shaping the oppositions attack.
Caleb's positioning and impact on defence is worrying, as is the amount of missed tackles by Will Jordan.
On attack we're looking much better now that the forward's shape and impact has improved.
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@antipodean said in Backline defence captain:
For those of you no longer playing or coaching, the modern vogue is to leave the opposition winger to the covering fullback
Modern? That was the "vogue" 30 years ago and is just a simple numbers game. Fullback and potentially blindside wing enters the line on attack, so fullback sweeps and tidies...as does blindside wing.
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@antipodean said in Backline defence captain:
For those of you no longer playing or coaching, the modern vogue is to leave the opposition winger to the covering fullback. It provides the benefit of showing space, forcing passes and using the side line. It allows you to bunch and restrict the middle which is much harder to defend after a breach as a side line break can really only go one way. Breach the middle and you can go either way.
Currently our wingers look to position themselves to do neither, or make decisions that expose them having made no impact shaping the oppositions attack.
Caleb's positioning and impact on defence is worrying, as is the amount of missed tackles by Will Jordan.
On attack we're looking much better now that the forward's shape and impact has improved.
Clarke hesitates which means the shaping doesn’t work. Jordan rushes up the tramlines committing too early
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@mariner4life said in Backline defence captain:
@Chris-B said in Backline defence captain:
@pakman I've got ALB pretty much locked into my first choice midfield - I'm just not sure whether at 12 or 13.
Right now, I'd be somewhat tempted to push Rieko to 11.
Jack Goodhue also floating around as a wildcard. He could be starting or he may not even make the RWC squad. It's coming up two years since Jack played a test and we won't have tests to waste building new combos next year.
in my opinion only, a midfield of Havili and ALB lacks balance. Where is the threat that gives defenses kittens? At the moment we have the passing and kicking ability of Havili balanced with the threat of Ioane smoking you to the outside and disappearing in to the distance. ALB does not provide that threat, which means way more pressure on 10 and 12.
Either or. ALB hasn’t bashed for a long time.
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I think the coaches would have loved to have built an ALB-Goodhue combo but both have just been injured the majority of the time so it hasn't happened. Another combo I like the look of is Goodhue-Rieko. Goodhue is the closest thing we've had to Conrad, and on attack Rieko is the only midfielder running around that could rival Nonu. Different players to their predecessors but they offer some similar outcomes for the opposition. Jacks lack of pace would be less likely to get exposed at 12 as well and he could take charge of the defense.
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@No-Quarter said in Backline defence captain:
Jacks lack of pace would be less likely to get exposed at 12 as well and he could take charge of the defense.
I am probably completely wrong, but I have never gained the impression that Jack is a natural leader. I have been waiting for him to take games and his team mates by the scruff of the neck but he never seems to.
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Bryn Hall backing Havili as ears and eyes for backline.
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@Crazy-Horse not overly relevant now, but didnt he Captain the U21s at some point?
he seems to do a fair bit of organising of the Crusaders defensive line when he is out there.
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@taniwharugby said in Backline defence captain:
@Crazy-Horse not overly relevant now, but didnt he Captain the U21s at some point?
he seems to do a fair bit of organising of the Crusaders defensive line when he is out there.
What day was that?
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I remember Goodhue playing on the wing for the U20s. He obviously was quick enough back then.
