All Blacks 2025
-
-
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think this would be an interesting backline.
- J Barrett
- W Jordan
- B Proctor
> 12. L Fainga'anuku - C Clarke
- R Love
- C Roigard
Also I think JRK could be a good option at 14. Or DMac at 15 and Jordan at 14 with Love at 10. There's lots of options.
So he walks back into the team in a different position on the back of no NZ Rugby for a couple of years ?
Bold
No.
I said it would be an interesting backline. It's theoretical. It's more to the point that we have some options.
I also expect Fainga'anuku will be rushed back into the squad at Razor's nearest convenience and for him to get special treatment compared to others - similar to Blackadder, Fihaki, Bell etc.
-
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life I think Roigard will start too, because I don't think Robertson has a good handle on how to use his bench effectively. Both good players as you say, I just see Roigard as a better option if we are chasing the game late because of his running, or if we are defending a lead because of his kicking.
Ratima's advantage is in speed and accuracy of passing and combination with McKenzie, and I think that is most important early when the opposition defensive line is at their fastest and most organised.Cam Roigard is just an infinitely better player though, who should play 65 minutes. If you don’t think Ratima is the impact man, then pick someone else.
-
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life I think Roigard will start too, because I don't think Robertson has a good handle on how to use his bench effectively. Both good players as you say, I just see Roigard as a better option if we are chasing the game late because of his running, or if we are defending a lead because of his kicking.
Ratima's advantage is in speed and accuracy of passing and combination with McKenzie, and I think that is most important early when the opposition defensive line is at their fastest and most organised.Cam Roigard is just an infinitely better player though, who should play 65 minutes. If you don’t think Ratima is the impact man, then pick someone else.
We have to get away from the outdated idea that the sub player has to be the second best in his position. Impact is a different quality altogether
-
-
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For all this talk about loose forwards, people seem to be either ignorant or forgetful about our best loose forward trio in modern times. Kaino, McCaw and Read. From 2010–2015 they were just on another level culminating in two RWC wins, an undefeated season, and they bossed almost every Test they played.
How did they achieve this? With balance across the park but not just covering the others' "weakness". The GOAT was a tireless tackler, hit rucks disrupting and slowing down opposition ball he couldn't thieve. Kaino set the tone physically, but also had underrated hands and footwork - he wasn't just a battering ram. And Read possessed a great skillset, awesome in support, and could absolutely smoke blokes in defence when needed.
Between the three of them they stood 5.76 metres tall.
People attempting to argue we should run out loose forward trios with no players taller than the shortest of the above are on the far left of the bell curve.
It's Test rugby and we need to identify players that have the attributes to play effectively at that level, not audition for a SR barbarians game highlight reel.
You're right re size.
There is a bit of a trap there though, in that we don't have clones of those greats, and you end up trying to shoehorn blokes with different talents into roles which don't suit them. It's important to remember that there are different ways to play the game and the game is played with the players you've got, not the players you wish you had.
Which one of those 3 is Ardie? He doesn't make the number of tackles or hit anywhere near the rucks of McCaw.
We have a couple of guys who are Kaino-like in Finau and Parker, but are not near as good at this stage - and also not as good as other contenders who don't play like Kaino - and they won't be playing alongside McCaw and Read.
Who do we have who plays like Read? A first rate lineout forward who can run and handle with the backs and also smash blokes.These guys, while greats, weren't perfect either. McCaw was not a great ball runner and did not have great hands. Read was not a workrate player, he was a high impact player. And they had our best ever locking combo in front of them.
As much as people on here will hate it, I think the option might be stack the tight forwards with power players Samisoni, Tosi, Tuipolotou, and add a workrate loosie in EB/LJ/DP to the Savea/Sititi combo.
The other way would be to go workrate tighties: Newell, Taylor, Holland, with Finau/Parker.
The third way would be to go fuck it, we're going to play to our strengths - stay with us if you can - and pick Savea/Sititi/Sotutu with the workrate tighties to start and the impact ones on the bench. There's no team who could match that trio in skill-set. I'd love to see it, but Razor seems pretty conservative to me though, so it'll probably be some shitty halfway house between the first two.I'm less concerned with who as to what. I believe that we need to determine which players have certain attributes that align with what McCaw, Kaino and Read brought as a trio and seek the players the best replicate that skillset. So that doesn't mean our number 8 has to be a Read, but somewhere in that trio Read's skillset is catered for.
Our tighties should be doing power work anyway, so it's not acceptable to me to suggest 80% of them should concentrate on that as an excuse to roll out a midget backrow as some are calling for. A SSL backrow is going to only look good against the likes of Japan.
And there's little opportunity to have a paradigm shift in running the opposition off their feet. It's not the early 2000's - the top five ranked Test teams are fit, and use the bench competently the vast majority of the time.
-
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
The settled nature of this relatively strong AB side means Razor should throw caution to the wind and try the form options at 6, 13, wings and 15.
It would be crazy if guys like Parker, Lakai, ,Love and Proctor don't get a good run.If we're 2-0 up going into the third test against France, I'd like to see Love get some time off the bench (at least 30mins) at 10. Proctor with a start as well as Lakai at openside.
-
We need better mileage out of our front row in terms of carries and cleaning out...our front rows used to be streets ahead in terms of skill and workrate, yet we've lost alot of ground there and when they aren't carrying or cleaning, our locks or loosies have to plug that gap, affecting our everything as we often havr 2 props that are only there to hold up thier side of the scrum and offer bugger all else.
-
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
We need better mileage out of our front row in terms of carries and cleaning out...our front rows used to be streets ahead in terms of skill and workrate, yet we've lost alot of ground there and when they aren't carrying or cleaning, our locks or loosies have to plug that gap, affecting our everything as we often havr 2 props that are only there to hold up thier side of the scrum and offer bugger all else.
It's the classic catch-22, we used to have front rowers that were fabolous in terms of carries and cleaning out but often got shown up at the set-piece, I guess at least if you have the ball you stand a chance of doing something with it rather than constantly loosing your set piece and playing defence.
-
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life I think Roigard will start too, because I don't think Robertson has a good handle on how to use his bench effectively. Both good players as you say, I just see Roigard as a better option if we are chasing the game late because of his running, or if we are defending a lead because of his kicking.
Ratima's advantage is in speed and accuracy of passing and combination with McKenzie, and I think that is most important early when the opposition defensive line is at their fastest and most organised.Cam Roigard is just an infinitely better player though, who should play 65 minutes. If you don’t think Ratima is the impact man, then pick someone else.
I don't think Ratima is the impact man, that's why I'd pick someone else: Cam.
The saffas have given us a lesson in bench players not necessarily being worse than starters for years now. -
@Windows97 I think circa 2007-2015 we had the best of both, but prior to 2007ish you are right, and post 2016 we have gone the other way.
-
I don't think Ratima is very strong tactically, but has speed and toughness and plays to patterns. Cam is easily number one. Be good to have 2 others available with different strengths in my view. Not sure why Christie is so vilified on here.
I am not fully convinced by Lakai yet. He is high action, but not sure on how he matches up physically compared to other loosie contenders. I think ABs will value that physical impact greatly.
Procter is a must for 13 in my view. And I want to see how Ollie Norris would go.
It all makes for plenty of scrutiny in remaining super matches. -
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
If he can't come back and rip up trees in the NPC, he shouldn't be a lock for the EOYT either
He's a Cantab who left early. By Razors logic he will be first name picked when he's actually available.
What happened to "I try to be one of the nice guys on here these days"
-
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
Cam Roigard is just an infinitely better player though, who should play 65 minutes. If you don’t think Ratima is the impact man, then pick someone else.
Despite being a Roigard fan, I question whether "infinitely better" is really accurate. What does worry me about Ratima was his slide in AB form. Not sure what happened there.
-
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
Cam Roigard is just an infinitely better player though, who should play 65 minutes. If you don’t think Ratima is the impact man, then pick someone else.
Despite being a Roigard fan, I question whether "infinitely better" is really accurate. What does worry me about Ratima was his slide in AB form. Not sure what happened there.
His form slid
-
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
Despite being a Roigard fan, I question whether "infinitely better" is really accurate. What does worry me about Ratima was his slide in AB form. Not sure what happened there.
His form slid
Brilliant. That's the sort of cutting analysis I visit the Fern for.
-
-
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life I think Roigard will start too, because I don't think Robertson has a good handle on how to use his bench effectively. Both good players as you say, I just see Roigard as a better option if we are chasing the game late because of his running, or if we are defending a lead because of his kicking.
Ratima's advantage is in speed and accuracy of passing and combination with McKenzie, and I think that is most important early when the opposition defensive line is at their fastest and most organised.Cam Roigard is just an infinitely better player though, who should play 65 minutes. If you don’t think Ratima is the impact man, then pick someone else.
We have to get away from the outdated idea that the sub player has to be the second best in his position. Impact is a different quality altogether
It is, but Roigard can impact the game for 65 minutes... why only use him for 30? If he wasn't so clearly no. 1 I would agree. Dupont doesn't start on the bench for France for example.
-
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life I think Roigard will start too, because I don't think Robertson has a good handle on how to use his bench effectively. Both good players as you say, I just see Roigard as a better option if we are chasing the game late because of his running, or if we are defending a lead because of his kicking.
Ratima's advantage is in speed and accuracy of passing and combination with McKenzie, and I think that is most important early when the opposition defensive line is at their fastest and most organised.Cam Roigard is just an infinitely better player though, who should play 65 minutes. If you don’t think Ratima is the impact man, then pick someone else.
I don't think Ratima is the impact man, that's why I'd pick someone else: Cam.
The saffas have given us a lesson in bench players not necessarily being worse than starters for years now.Pick Fakatava or Hotham... even Funaki or Roe.
-
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life I think Roigard will start too, because I don't think Robertson has a good handle on how to use his bench effectively. Both good players as you say, I just see Roigard as a better option if we are chasing the game late because of his running, or if we are defending a lead because of his kicking.
Ratima's advantage is in speed and accuracy of passing and combination with McKenzie, and I think that is most important early when the opposition defensive line is at their fastest and most organised.Cam Roigard is just an infinitely better player though, who should play 65 minutes. If you don’t think Ratima is the impact man, then pick someone else.
We have to get away from the outdated idea that the sub player has to be the second best in his position. Impact is a different quality altogether
It is, but Roigard can impact the game for 65 minutes... why only use him for 30? If he wasn't so clearly no. 1 I would agree. Dupont doesn't start on the bench for France for example.
I don't think you get what I'm saying. The number one is the number one. The impact player off the bench for 20 minutes isn't necessarily going to be the second best half back in general, he might just be more explosive
