Bastille day truck crash
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="597988" data-time="1468883199">
<div>
<p>Pretty broad.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I know ISIS have claimed Nice, but usually they wait for the public declaration of allegiance to come to light first - did that come through to Police or get sent on FB or something? I haven't been watching closely the last couple of days (trying to save a rugby club).</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>No nothing but no one else claimed it. So they threw their hat in the ring. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="597970" data-time="1468876676">
<div>
<p>Hey I'm not really in this argument but I did want to check the context of the quote by Gary.<br><br>
If you're going to state something as evidence make sure it is. I can't comment on what the Koran/Quran or Haddith or whatever Islam's book says. I'm not necessariky backing BSG or attacking Islam. I suppose I could google some context in the Quran if given specific references. It's really easy to look up "Luke 19:27".<br><br>
Also given my upbringing in an essentislly Christian county (i know many of "you guys" hate that reference but Western European culture is rooted in Christianity) and therefore a vague knowledge of how the Old and New Testaments work I have a starting point to go the google.<br><br>
So don't give the "you guys" line. I was only pointing out bullshit.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Was not directing this at anyone in particular my point was more trying to understand how a person interprets a book full of fairy tales is a total waste of time. Regardless of the religion or the text chosen. Context is irrelevant when dealing with these people.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Anyway I am peaceing out of these friendly little chats we all have about these topics as it seems as pointless as the facebook profile thing. I had to check that I don't do the facebook. As long as we feed these trolls with media attention they won't go away. So I am becoming part of the solution and not paying them any attention.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Good luck if you find a solution feel free to drop me a PM. Until then I am going to focus on finding that holiday house in the south I have been talking about. </p> -
It's trendy to bag the whole "thoughts and prayers", change your profile pic, raise awareness etc. <br><br>
But given 99.9% of us can do sod all when anything happens, at very worst, thoughts and prayers at least make people feel like they've done something... or at the least feel like they give a damn... Or something. <br><br>
So far as I can tell, the first responders et al didn't stop for thoughts and prayers. I reckon it's a bit like sending a condolence card, what you write never feels sufficient (and probably never is), but it is something at the least. <br><br>
Yeah, there's probably showboating from some in the mix, but those people usually stand out for doing that across all aspects of their lives. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mooshld" data-cid="598123" data-time="1468917961"><p>Was not directing this at anyone in particular my point was more trying to understand how a person interprets a book full of fairy tales is a total waste of time. Regardless of the religion or the text chosen. Context is irrelevant when dealing with these people.<br></p></blockquote>
<br>
Context is always important. Especially when trying to understand a movement who may try to kill. I don't think that means trying to understand people to excuse extreme behaviour, but writing them off as irredeemable is unlikely to help change them... Or stop them. <br><br>
Besides, refs have it hard when interpreting the book of scrum laws. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mooshld" data-cid="598120" data-time="1468917347">
<div>
<p>No nothing but no one else claimed it. So they threw their hat in the ring. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Which is a new direction for them - they've moved from organisation, to claiming based on declaration of allegiance (with no organisational links), to just saying "Yeah totes us! What a soldier!"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The ground war must be going even more shittily than previously thought.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mooshld" data-cid="598120" data-time="1468917347">
<div>
<p>No nothing but no one else claimed it. So they threw their hat in the ring. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Bollox. That is just some major fabrication. What point have we got to now in the denial stakes? Some guy kills scores, a terrorist group with a history of inspiring murderous attacks in the west claims responsibility and we get people asking them to prove it? FFS. The world has gone mad.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Would you like ISIS to also provide copies of email correspondence? A signed application form? Does it need to be witnessed by a JP?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="598132" data-time="1468918817">
<div>
<p>Which is a new direction for them - they've moved from organisation, to claiming based on declaration of allegiance (with no organisational links), to just saying "Yeah totes us! What a soldier!"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The ground war must be going even more shittily than previously thought.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>They have not moved in a new direction at all. That is just the new narrative from some sections, not based on anything but the desire to avoid linking terror attacks in the west to ISIS.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="598129" data-time="1468918574">
<div>
<p>Context is always important. Especially when trying to understand a movement who may try to kill. I don't think that means trying to understand people to excuse extreme behaviour, but writing them off as irredeemable is unlikely to help change them... Or stop them.<br><br>
Besides, refs have it hard when interpreting the book of scrum laws.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I always laugh when I hear someone trying to tell me context is not important. Context is always important. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="598089" data-time="1468912626">
<div><br><p>If poverty, lack of education etc. are the root factors then how do you explain that many of these guys grow up in comfortable (sometimes well-off) homes in western countries with access to all the benefits a Western country can provide? Neither the guy in Orlando nor the one in Nice seemed to be particularly poor or lacking in opportunities.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Poverty, lack of education etc are factors <em>in the third world</em>.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Groups like ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Shabab etc are all sustained by a total failure of the state to provide security, healthcare, education etc. EG Lebanon was a very liberal country, they then had a civil war, got invaded by Israel, had another civil war, got invaded again. Had all their infrastructure destroyed & had a total breakdown in government. So if you wanted your kid to go to school they could go to the state one - which had no books, teachers or power. Or to the Hezbollah one, that had the basics, but had a pretty islamic criteria, they'd learn to read & count, but also that Allah was aces. Same with medicine, you could bribe a state employee or you could get it for free from Hezbollah. Same in Gaza. The only people providing basic care to the people are Islamists. So people embrace the Islamists.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>ISIS arose because the Sunni minority in Iraq had no jobs, no security, were excluded from power & were being routinely killed and robbed. So people embraced ISIS. Its no different to the way the Germans embraced the NAZI's in the depression. If there is no state you will take anyone offering security.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Then, if you follow the link (that the more "anti Islam" on here very much do) that every attack in the west is being done by or inspired by ISIS, surely you want to remove the root causes of ISIS?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And that is provide a functional state in the failed ones.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Its no surprise that 30 years ago we had AQ in Afghanistan (failed state) and that was largely it (the PLO, IRA etc were not gloabl terror groups, they were single cause groups at war with Israel / UK). Now with Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria all failed states in various levels of civil war we have AQ, AQIHA, Al Shabab, Boko Haram, ISIS, Nusra Front etc... almost all of which operate in several countries.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The other big different is Twitter & Facebook, Bin Laden used to record tapes & smuggle them out, al-Baghdadi just tweets. So you want to inspire those idiots in France who hate everything beacuse they are on roids, have no job, and their wife & kids left them & are looking for a reason its a whole lot easier </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="598135" data-time="1468919402">
<div>
<p>Bollox. That is just some major fabrication. What point have we got to now in the denial stakes? Some guy kills scores, a terrorist group with a history of inspiring murderous attacks in the west claims responsibility and we get people asking them to prove it? FFS. The world has gone mad.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Would you like ISIS to also provide copies of email correspondence? A signed application form? <strong>Does it need to be witnessed by a JP?</strong></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Surely it'd be a JW (or JJ) in thier ranks?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="598136" data-time="1468919473">
<div>
<p>They have not moved in a new direction at all. That is just the new narrative from some sections, not based on anything but the desire to avoid linking terror attacks in the west to ISIS.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Its a definite difference in operation. ISIS were pretty clear that people should make an shout it from the rooftops before they went and offed someone. This guy apparently didn't according to sources so far.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If ISIS are claiming just anything done by a Muslim now who may or may not have been radicalised in a certain way... well, that's roughly equivalent to WBC claiming gay people being bashed to death is God's punishment for "fags".</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Its shadow puppetry at best, from an organisation that is slowly having its military forces crushed. That's not to say they aren't still dangerous via these sorts of attacks.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But if they're now just claiming random shit... jeez it shows how desperate they are.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Maybe the guy was so depressed, he forgot to leave the voicemail? Ran out of data credit to post to FB?</p> -
<p>Check this thing out BTW - really interesting use of mapping and news APIs to provide a livemap:</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://isis.liveuamap.com/'>http://isis.liveuamap.com/</a></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="598139" data-time="1468919776"><p>
Poverty, lack of education etc are factors <em>in the third world</em>.<br><br>
Groups like ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Shabab etc are all sustained by a total failure of the state to provide security, healthcare, education etc. EG Lebanon was a very liberal country, they then had a civil war, got invaded by Israel, had another civil war, got invaded again. Had all their infrastructure destroyed & had a total breakdown in government. So if you wanted your kid to go to school they could go to the state one - which had no books, teachers or power. Or to the Hezbollah one, that had the basics, but had a pretty islamic criteria, they'd learn to read & count, but also that Allah was aces. Same with medicine, you could bribe a state employee or you could get it for free from Hezbollah. Same in Gaza. The only people providing basic care to the people are Islamists. So people embrace the Islamists.<br><br>
ISIS arose because the Sunni minority in Iraq had no jobs, no security, were excluded from power & were being routinely killed and robbed. So people embraced ISIS. Its no different to the way the Germans embraced the NAZI's in the depression. If there is no state you will take anyone offering security.<br><br>
Then, if you follow the link (that the more "anti Islam" on here very much do) that every attack in the west is being done by or inspired by ISIS, surely you want to remove the root causes of ISIS?<br><br>
And that is provide a functional state in the failed ones.<br><br>
Its no surprise that 30 years ago we had AQ in Afghanistan (failed state) and that was largely it (the PLO, IRA etc were not gloabl terror groups, they were single cause groups at war with Israel / UK). Now with Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria all failed states in various levels of civil war we have AQ, AQIHA, Al Shabab, Boko Haram, ISIS, Nusra Front etc... almost all of which operate in several countries.<br><br>
The other big different is Twitter & Facebook, Bin Laden used to record tapes & smuggle them out, al-Baghdadi just tweets. So you want to inspire those idiots in France who hate everything beacuse they are on roids, have no job, and their wife & kids left them & are looking for a reason its a whole lot easier</p></blockquote>
<br>
That's wonderful but it was quite clear that I wasn't talking about the 3rd world. Many of the guys responsible for terrorist attacks in the West and indeed those going to fight for ISIS have had quite privileged upbringings. It's a bit difficult to say that the root causes were poverty and lack of education when referring to these guys. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="598147" data-time="1468921982">
<div>
<p>Its a definite difference in operation. ISIS were pretty clear that people should make an shout it from the rooftops before they went and offed someone. This guy apparently didn't according to sources so far.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If ISIS are claiming just anything done by a Muslim now who may or may not have been radicalised in a certain way... well, that's roughly equivalent to WBC claiming gay people being bashed to death is God's punishment for "fags".</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Its shadow puppetry at best, from an organisation that is slowly having its military forces crushed. That's not to say they aren't still dangerous via these sorts of attacks.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But if they're now just claiming random shit... jeez it shows how desperate they are.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Maybe the guy was so depressed, he forgot to leave the voicemail? Ran out of data credit to post to FB?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Maybe shouting from the rooftops before you attack is not a good idea? Maybe they figured that out? </p>
<p>All this nonsense with people trying to say he was not inspired by ISIS is just laughable and such a side show.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Shadow puppets don't generally kills scores of people. This attack was not 'random shit'. It was an islamic extremist attack on infidels claimed by ISIS.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="598139" data-time="1468919776">
<div>
<p>Poverty, lack of education etc are factors <em>in the third world</em>.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Groups like ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Shabab etc are all sustained by a total failure of the state to provide security, healthcare, education etc. EG Lebanon was a very liberal country, they then had a civil war, got invaded by Israel, had another civil war, got invaded again. Had all their infrastructure destroyed & had a total breakdown in government. So if you wanted your kid to go to school they could go to the state one - which had no books, teachers or power. Or to the Hezbollah one, that had the basics, but had a pretty islamic criteria, they'd learn to read & count, but also that Allah was aces. Same with medicine, you could bribe a state employee or you could get it for free from Hezbollah. Same in Gaza. The only people providing basic care to the people are Islamists. So people embrace the Islamists.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>ISIS arose because the Sunni minority in Iraq had no jobs, no security, were excluded from power & were being routinely killed and robbed. So people embraced ISIS. Its no different to the way the Germans embraced the NAZI's in the depression. If there is no state you will take anyone offering security.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Then, if you follow the link (that the more "anti Islam" on here very much do) that every attack in the west is being done by or inspired by ISIS, surely you want to remove the root causes of ISIS?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And that is provide a functional state in the failed ones.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Its no surprise that 30 years ago we had AQ in Afghanistan (failed state) and that was largely it (the PLO, IRA etc were not gloabl terror groups, they were single cause groups at war with Israel / UK). Now with Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria all failed states in various levels of civil war we have AQ, AQIHA, Al Shabab, Boko Haram, ISIS, Nusra Front etc... almost all of which operate in several countries.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The other big different is Twitter & Facebook, Bin Laden used to record tapes & smuggle them out, al-Baghdadi just tweets. So you want to inspire those idiots in France who hate everything beacuse they are on roids, have no job, and their wife & kids left them & are looking for a reason its a whole lot easier </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Following your logic and some peoples reluctance to criticise Islam. You must not criticise the Nazi ideology.... yeah thats a good idea. The Nazi regime was based on an nasty ideology. So is Islam. </p>
<p>Both have found fertile ground in certain situations.</p>
<p>I do have a sneaking suspicion that there would have been many people who if alive in at that moment in time in 1936 would have a similar attitude towards the Nazi doctrine as they currently have about the Islamic religion. Appease appease appease .'Not all Nazis are bad', 'we need to be more understanding', 'It is all our fault they are like this', 'we cannot go to war with them' etc etc </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="598173" data-time="1468928558">
<div>
<p>Did you really just call me a Nazi sympathiser?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Only if your comprehension skills are appalling. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="598135" data-time="1468919402">
<div>
<p>Bollox. That is just some major fabrication. What point have we got to now in the denial stakes? Some guy kills scores, a terrorist group with a history of inspiring murderous attacks in the west claims responsibility and we get people asking them to prove it? FFS. The world has gone mad.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Would you like ISIS to also provide copies of email correspondence? A signed application form? Does it need to be witnessed by a JP?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>at this point the investigations have found no link to isis, of course they may yet do so.</p>
<p>isis have a clear motive to claim the attack.</p>
<p>why would anyone consider isis trustworthy?</p>
<p>some people prefer evidence or statements from the authorities, that's all.</p> -
<p>Yep, sometimes its best, but I don't think anyone gives a shit anymore</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing#Media_coverage'>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing#Media_coverage</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>"<span style="font-family:calibri, sans-serif;">Hundreds of news trucks and members of the press arrived at the site to cover the story. The press immediately noticed that the bombing took place on the second anniversary of the Waco incident Many initial news stories hypothesized the attack had been undertaken by Islamic terrorists, such as those who had masterminded the 1993 World Trade Center bombing Some responded to these reports by attacking Muslims and people of Arab descent.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-family:calibri, sans-serif;">Before any evidence could be introduced to say otherwise, the media presented stories to the public that accused individuals within Middle Eastern groups. At this time in America, stereotypes that focused on the Arab race had affected many American Arabs within the United States. These stereotypes may have impacted how individuals acted after the bombing, and can explain why the media assumed that Middle Eastern groups were responsible. In the case of the Oklahoma City Bombing, Hamzi Moghrabi, chairman of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, blamed the media for the attacks on Muslims and Arabs that took place just days after the bombing"</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-family:calibri, sans-serif;">If the Rainbow warrior happened now Baron would be baracaiding himself in the house having reralised ISIS were in NZ</span></p>