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@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@No-Quarter said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@No-Quarter said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
Calling her movie The Red Pill was a bad move, for many it instantly robbed it of any credibility because most people associate it with pick up artist douchery, not mens rights.
Most people, i.e. you.
No, most people that have ever heard of them.
They've gained notoriety in the past for seriously discussing stuff like "Women want to be raped" or "The case for legalising rape".
From recollection, theres some cross over with the Alt Right but Im not sure how.
But in case you are of the belief that they are about Mens Rights and not Picking Up women, dont take my word for it, take theirs:
"The Red Pill: Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men."I'd never heard of them so the name was pretty meaningless to me.
Cassie Jaye said she did ask them about the comments to do with rape, and said that a) those comments were taken out of context and were largely explainable and b) she chose not to include them in this movie as anything to do with rape is a massive rabbit hole that would require it's own movie.
I don't know the context so won't comment on them, but as with anything context is critical. And in my experience with SJWs/Feminists they absolutely love to take statements out of context to smear people they disagree with politically.
Check it out for yourself and see what you think. Ask women what they think.
I haven't watched the movie yet. Thing is, I totally agree that there are problems that are unique to men, I just argue the naming of the movie was a bad choice. It instantly aligns itself with the Alt Right and if one wants to be taken seriously, that's not a great start.Ask women what they think? What good would that do? I could ask two woman and get two completely different answers. Woman aren't completely homogenous, I really dislike when a groupthink mentalilty is assigned to people based on biological features like gender or race, it's nonsensical in the real world.
Anyway when I google "The Red Pill" I get a bunch of links about the movie and a reddit page with a handful of followers talking about a variety of stuff of little interest to me. So didn't really learn much there and don't have much motivation to look further right now...
I believe its a good idea to seek out people who are likely to harbour differing views and I thought you might too. No one suggested all women think the same (?!).
So why did you specify he talk to a woman and not just a person?
😂Holy Freaky Friday! This is the kind of question I would expect from a SJW!
I figure women (not all women so dont go strawmanning now, ok?) are likely to have a different view of Elams comments on rape than men (not all men!!!).
Man. I feel like Im tip toeing on eggshells here and Im not even sure why!So what you're saying is that some women are likely to have a different view on Elam's comments on rape then some men. So if I want to talk to someone who harbours views different to mine I should talk to "some" women to see what they think. That makes no sense.
I don't mean to pick your posts apart as I know most on here just type what they are thinking without giving their posts a great deal of thought or planning, but that suggestion stood out to me as a bit odd.
I'm happy to seek out people whose views are counter to mine, it's what forms the basis of forums like this, and it is exactly what has led me to where I am today.
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@phoenetia look, I know where you're coming from. I probably would have made a similar comment a few years ago - you're standing up for women's rights so the logical thing to do is to say "ask women what they think" as you'd expect them to back up your statement. Why wouldn't they? You're on their side.
But that doesn't really work in reality, as we both agree you can't lump people together based on a biological trait and expect them to all think the same thing. Another example is the recent march against hate in the UK. You had gay people taking part and speaking at the march against radical Islam, and you also had gay people on the other side of the fence marching against Islamophobia. So when I see people use general terms like the "gay community" I am suspicious as they're basically lumping a bunch of completely different individuals together based on their sexuality which is 1) out of their control and 2) doesn't define them as people in any way. It's a nonsense term when dealing with the real world.
What I've learnt is that if you make a statement that you cannot apply logically in the real world, then that should tell you the statement is flawed. So much of what the hard left/SJWs say makes no sense when you try and apply it to the real world, because the real world is so much more complicated then what they make out (especially in regards to "the oppressor" and "the oppressed").
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@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@JC said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia Well, speaking as one of those who have seen the film, the choice of name is alluded to by Jaye herself. And yes, it is about the whole Matrix red pill / blue pill thing.
I understand the argument that the name might reduce the credibility of the film. I'd counter it by asking amongst what group?
The answer might be partially found in the film itself, because one of the issues that comes through strongly is how close-minded the orthodox left are in the face of even the suggestion of men's rights or grievances. I think if we're honest the name of the film isn't going to make any difference to them; their minds are well and truly made up. Or at least that's the premise of the film.
Of course the many people she interviewed may not have been representative of the academic, political and media classes as a whole, maybe she just lucked out in that all the opposing voices she interviewed came across as the type of smug, condescending, and often aggressive piston wristed gibbons she hoped for in order to make a compelling film. Or maybe the men's rights people are right, and the smug piston wristed gibbons are indeed representative.
I said in the movie thread when I saw the film that some of the men's rights people in it are not the nicest of people if you bother to google them. However just because the messenger may be flawed doesn't mean the message is. And it was remarkable how many of the interviewees were completely dismissive of any of the arguments without actually ever having listened to them.
I'll be interested to see what you think when you've seen it. It's on Amazon Prime Video, iTunes Uk and US. Not iTunes NZ though, I don't know why that is.
By anyone who had previously heard of TheRedPill prior to the film or anyone who thinks "wtf is TheRedPill", googles it, and then wonders why the first page is littered with results regarding misogyny. Or perhaps they go to the TRP subreddit and wonder why its discussing "Sexual Strategy" - how does that play into Mens Rights?
The thing that grates is that the film covers some really important topics. That the film maker chose to follow TRP knowing they had a controversial history that pits them against their gendered opposites introduces an unnecessary conflict that contributes to the impeded penetration of the movies message. It'd be like doing a movie on the challenges facing Muslims and following al-Jama'a al-Islamiyya around.
I hope to watch it with the Mrs in the next week or so. We just started watching American Gods so thats getting our viewing time at the moment
Sorry how did the film maker follow TRP??
If you hadn't already admitted not watching the film, you just made it obvious. Dont comment on what is in the film until you have watched it. Because quite honestly your comments on the content of the film are laughable."Unnecessary conflict that contributes to the impeded penetration of the movies message"??? WTF???
How can you remotely assess that without seeing the film?? And how exactly does it grate you when you havent seen it??I'll continue to comment on what I like thanks and I welcome you to do the same. By all means, call me out for not having watched it (yet) but that doesnt mean my points are not valid because I can read and understand (or "remotely assess", if you will) details of the movie without having watched it. For example, I know it stars Paul Elam, who is infamous for being considered a rape apologist and also happens to run The Red Pill Shop. If the aim is to raise awareness and push forward on progress for issues concerning men, featuring a person like Elam is only going to work against this goal. That's what grates - I think awareness absolutely needs to be raised (do you agree ?). I want the discussions however the messenger matters and a disreputed messenger does no one any favours.
Apology not accepted.
You continue to comment via unsubstantiated and plain wrong claims.. you will continue to be told you are ignorant and wrong. I am not calling you our for not watching the film I calling you out for being full of shite when you try to tell others (who have seen the film) what is in the film.I will ask again .. how does the film follow around TRP?
You say you want the messenger to matter... yet here you are spreading lies about the message... or at the least being willfully ignorant of the message.
You claimed the movie followed TRP. Complete and utter bullshit. It is like you are just throwing anything you can think of around and hoping something will stick. Instead of just watching the damn film and then commenting. I am starting to thin you are just trolling. No other explanation for someone who is so determined to lie about what the film includes.
Even if you bother to watch the film now, it wont matter, you have a closed mind about it before you even watch it. You will just be determined to make sure you defend your weird narrative.No apology was offered but ok (?!)
Ah shit I said TRP earlier when I should have said MRA. That was wrong. Not sure what I can do now to correct that but let the record show that I got that wrong.That doesnt make it any better. Now you have swapped tack to it being wrong for t a film maker to follow the MRA in a film about the MRA.
Take a break and get your story straight. -
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rembrandt said in Gender Studies:
The red pill and its opposite, the blue pill, are popular cultural symbols representing the choice between: Knowledge, freedom and the (sometimes painful) truth of reality (red pill) Falsehood, security and the blissful ignorance of illusion (blue pill)
Works for me.
So what is the alt-right then exactly? From what Ive read it covers anyone from Hitler to anyone who happens to even slightly disagree with something from the left.
See, names matter. Rather than alt-right, they should call themselves "Angry white man justice keyboard warriors" (again, borrowing their online vernacular). They see themselves as some kind of antithesis to the SJW of the left which has unwittingly exposed them to the same derision and ignominy.
Hey, does anyone here consider themselves alt-right?
I still can't believe that you think the name of this film has somehow impacted on how it has been received in Australia. You honestly think that there would be zero controversy if she'd simply called it "Men and women" or "Men have problems"?
BTW I did a Google search. In addition to the definition provided by the Dutch Master, there was also this from Urban Dictionary:
'Red pill' has become a popular phrase among cyberculture and signifies a free-thinking attitude, and a waking up from a "normal" life of sloth and ignorance. Red pills prefer the truth, no matter how gritty and painful it may be."
Seems like a pretty apt title to me, particularly as the filmmaker had to challenge her own biases and worldview.
I didn't make that claim so I'm not going to rebut your argument.
When I googled TheRedPill, I got 6 links concerning the insalubrious side of TRP, 2 links to the movie, 1 link to their reddit forum & 1 link to urban dictionary.
Also, I now know that it was created by a former Republican representative. Despite being his own creation, he tried to distance himself from initially so it seems its toxicity was not lost on him. He ended up resigning after his identity was made public.
You claimed that the name meant the film couldn't be taken seriously and that "most people" would connect it to some obscure term used by the alt-right. I respectfully disagree and am also unsure what this has to do with the discussion, which was principally about how this film has been received in Australia. Unless of course you do think that the "outcry" is because of the name and not the actual content of the film.
Cmon mate, you're strawmanning too. I didnt say it couldnt be taken seriously, I said it robbed it of credibility, not ALL credibility. Yes I think it was a factor however I did not make any claim that there would be zero controversy were it named something else.
BTW, TheRedPill is not an obscure Alt-Right term. TheRedPill started off as a pick up artist whoops I mean sexual strategy forum, its alleged at some point Alt-Right followers started to onboard TRP followers and apparently there is now a TheRedPillRight. TRP originally cited the Matrix as the origin of its name.
What are you talking about? Most people have never heard of Alt-right, let alone the red pill and yet you claim using this name has had a detrimental effect on the film? That's just complete bollocks. This film is "controversial" because of the content not the bloody name.
I never said the content wasnt controversial and I never said alt-right was widely known.
The alt right has nothing to do with it... that is just a bizarre straw man you introduced.
You dont seem to understand what a strawman is. Yes I raised that the alt-right have some history with TRP but I did not misrepresent anyone elses argument in order to make it weaker.
TRP reddit group is irrelevant to the film, you tried to make some bizarre link. Then you decided to bring up the alt right.. I am guessing in some distraction from the actual topic. So yes.. a straw man.
Distractions are called Red herrings, not strawmen.
No.. you constructed a position for the film and attacked it, a position the film does not take.
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@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@No-Quarter said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@No-Quarter said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
Calling her movie The Red Pill was a bad move, for many it instantly robbed it of any credibility because most people associate it with pick up artist douchery, not mens rights.
Most people, i.e. you.
No, most people that have ever heard of them.
They've gained notoriety in the past for seriously discussing stuff like "Women want to be raped" or "The case for legalising rape".
From recollection, theres some cross over with the Alt Right but Im not sure how.
But in case you are of the belief that they are about Mens Rights and not Picking Up women, dont take my word for it, take theirs:
"The Red Pill: Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men."I'd never heard of them so the name was pretty meaningless to me.
Cassie Jaye said she did ask them about the comments to do with rape, and said that a) those comments were taken out of context and were largely explainable and b) she chose not to include them in this movie as anything to do with rape is a massive rabbit hole that would require it's own movie.
I don't know the context so won't comment on them, but as with anything context is critical. And in my experience with SJWs/Feminists they absolutely love to take statements out of context to smear people they disagree with politically.
Check it out for yourself and see what you think. Ask women what they think.
I haven't watched the movie yet. Thing is, I totally agree that there are problems that are unique to men, I just argue the naming of the movie was a bad choice. It instantly aligns itself with the Alt Right and if one wants to be taken seriously, that's not a great start.Ask women what they think? What good would that do? I could ask two woman and get two completely different answers. Woman aren't completely homogenous, I really dislike when a groupthink mentalilty is assigned to people based on biological features like gender or race, it's nonsensical in the real world.
Anyway when I google "The Red Pill" I get a bunch of links about the movie and a reddit page with a handful of followers talking about a variety of stuff of little interest to me. So didn't really learn much there and don't have much motivation to look further right now...
I believe its a good idea to seek out people who are likely to harbour differing views and I thought you might too. No one suggested all women think the same (?!).
So why did you specify he talk to a woman and not just a person?
😂Holy Freaky Friday! This is the kind of question I would expect from a SJW!
I figure women (not all women so dont go strawmanning now, ok?) are likely to have a different view of Elams comments on rape than men (not all men!!!).
Man. I feel like Im tip toeing on eggshells here and Im not even sure why!No... I would argue that most women would agree with Elams position actually.
They wouldn't agree with the feminists and some medias interpretation of his position though.You are likely tip toeing on eggs shells because you are spouting off about the contents of a film you havent seen.
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@No-Quarter said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia look, I know where you're coming from. I probably would have made a similar comment a few years ago - you're standing up for women's rights so the logical thing to do is to say "ask women what they think" as you'd expect them to back up your statement. Why wouldn't they? You're on their side.
But that doesn't really work in reality, as we both agree you can't lump people together based on a biological trait and expect them to all think the same thing. Another example is the recent march against hate in the UK. You had gay people taking part and speaking at the march against radical Islam, and you also had gay people on the other side of the fence marching against Islamophobia. So when I see people use general terms like the "gay community" I am suspicious as they're basically lumping a bunch of completely different individuals together based on their sexuality which is 1) out of their control and 2) doesn't define them as people in any way. It's a nonsense term when dealing with the real world.
What I've learnt is that if you make a statement that you cannot apply logically in the real world, then that should tell you the statement is flawed. So much of what the hard left/SJWs say makes no sense when you try and apply it to the real world, because the real world is so much more complicated then what they make out (especially in regards to "the oppressor" and "the oppressed").
Thanks for taking the time to respond with civility. I get your point even though I dont necessarily agree with how you got there, but Im cool with that.
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@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@No-Quarter said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia look, I know where you're coming from. I probably would have made a similar comment a few years ago - you're standing up for women's rights so the logical thing to do is to say "ask women what they think" as you'd expect them to back up your statement. Why wouldn't they? You're on their side.
But that doesn't really work in reality, as we both agree you can't lump people together based on a biological trait and expect them to all think the same thing. Another example is the recent march against hate in the UK. You had gay people taking part and speaking at the march against radical Islam, and you also had gay people on the other side of the fence marching against Islamophobia. So when I see people use general terms like the "gay community" I am suspicious as they're basically lumping a bunch of completely different individuals together based on their sexuality which is 1) out of their control and 2) doesn't define them as people in any way. It's a nonsense term when dealing with the real world.
What I've learnt is that if you make a statement that you cannot apply logically in the real world, then that should tell you the statement is flawed. So much of what the hard left/SJWs say makes no sense when you try and apply it to the real world, because the real world is so much more complicated then what they make out (especially in regards to "the oppressor" and "the oppressed").
Thanks for taking the time to respond with civility. I get your point even though I dont necessarily agree with how you got there, but Im cool with that.
Especially seen part of how he got there was watching the film we are talking about .. how unacceptable.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Gender Studies:
@phoenetia said in Gender Studies:
@Rembrandt said in Gender Studies:
The red pill and its opposite, the blue pill, are popular cultural symbols representing the choice between: Knowledge, freedom and the (sometimes painful) truth of reality (red pill) Falsehood, security and the blissful ignorance of illusion (blue pill)
Works for me.
So what is the alt-right then exactly? From what Ive read it covers anyone from Hitler to anyone who happens to even slightly disagree with something from the left.
See, names matter. Rather than alt-right, they should call themselves "Angry white man justice keyboard warriors" (again, borrowing their online vernacular). They see themselves as some kind of antithesis to the SJW of the left which has unwittingly exposed them to the same derision and ignominy.
Hey, does anyone here consider themselves alt-right?
I still can't believe that you think the name of this film has somehow impacted on how it has been received in Australia. You honestly think that there would be zero controversy if she'd simply called it "Men and women" or "Men have problems"?
BTW I did a Google search. In addition to the definition provided by the Dutch Master, there was also this from Urban Dictionary:
'Red pill' has become a popular phrase among cyberculture and signifies a free-thinking attitude, and a waking up from a "normal" life of sloth and ignorance. Red pills prefer the truth, no matter how gritty and painful it may be."
Seems like a pretty apt title to me, particularly as the filmmaker had to challenge her own biases and worldview.
I didn't make that claim so I'm not going to rebut your argument.
When I googled TheRedPill, I got 6 links concerning the insalubrious side of TRP, 2 links to the movie, 1 link to their reddit forum & 1 link to urban dictionary.
Also, I now know that it was created by a former Republican representative. Despite being his own creation, he tried to distance himself from initially so it seems its toxicity was not lost on him. He ended up resigning after his identity was made public.
You claimed that the name meant the film couldn't be taken seriously and that "most people" would connect it to some obscure term used by the alt-right. I respectfully disagree and am also unsure what this has to do with the discussion, which was principally about how this film has been received in Australia. Unless of course you do think that the "outcry" is because of the name and not the actual content of the film.
Cmon mate, you're strawmanning too. I didnt say it couldnt be taken seriously, I said it robbed it of credibility, not ALL credibility. Yes I think it was a factor however I did not make any claim that there would be zero controversy were it named something else.
BTW, TheRedPill is not an obscure Alt-Right term. TheRedPill started off as a pick up artist whoops I mean sexual strategy forum, its alleged at some point Alt-Right followers started to onboard TRP followers and apparently there is now a TheRedPillRight. TRP originally cited the Matrix as the origin of its name.
What are you talking about? Most people have never heard of Alt-right, let alone the red pill and yet you claim using this name has had a detrimental effect on the film? That's just complete bollocks. This film is "controversial" because of the content not the bloody name.
I never said the content wasnt controversial and I never said alt-right was widely known.
The alt right has nothing to do with it... that is just a bizarre straw man you introduced.
You dont seem to understand what a strawman is. Yes I raised that the alt-right have some history with TRP but I did not misrepresent anyone elses argument in order to make it weaker.
TRP reddit group is irrelevant to the film, you tried to make some bizarre link. Then you decided to bring up the alt right.. I am guessing in some distraction from the actual topic. So yes.. a straw man.
Distractions are called Red herrings, not strawmen.
No.. you constructed a position for the film and attacked it, a position the film does not take.
Dude, if you and I cant even agree on what constitutes a red herring or a strawman, then we're unlikely to agree on anything. I suggest we move on.
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@phoenetia I suggest you watch the film before telling others what is in it or how it is done.
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@No-Quarter said in Gender Studies:
Good to see Susan Devoy keeping herself busy/employed while pissing away tax payer money on completely pointless expensive advertising campaigns...
http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/life/93710789/dont-let-it-slide-what-to-do-when-someone-is-racist
Edit - didn't want to derail this thread but figured this is as good a place as any to put this.
Fark that. Leave it to puppets to speak the truth
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So I was watching the NZ Maori get destroyed at a depressingly quiet bar in Melbourne last night when suddenly a huge group of mostly blokes walked in filling the place up. I'd had a couple ales so went over for a chat and turns out they were the mens rights movement. They had some event at another venue but it was shut down for security concerns and seeing my empty rugby pub decided to move there. Really interesting blokes, totally the opposite of what you might think of them just from main stream media coverage. Some incredibly deep philosophical thinkers. There were some ladies as well, had a chat to one of the 'Honey Badgers' whom I understand featured in the Red Pill movie. Need to give it a watch soon I think.
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This was actually a good read ( I was sent it, I don't visit the guardian site); I may even read a couple of these books:
Feminists do not need to have read Butler or Beauvoir to be influenced by them; many Marxists, after all, have not read Marx. And of course, the trans experience did not begin with Butler. Any discussion of trans identities and politics must start with trans authors. But if the impasse between Beauvoirian, gender-critical feminists on the one hand, and Butlerian and queer feminists on the other, is ever to be overcome, it is essential to acknowledge the philosophical basis as well as the practical implications of their disagreement. In particular, it should be recognised that, as the scope of the terms “trans” and “transgender” have expanded to include a range of identities, no longer referring only to people who have undergone a medical or surgical transition, the relationship between trans activism and feminism has also shifted. That’s because of the importance placed by gender-critical feminists, including me, on the body. Of course we don’t agree on everything, any more than LGBTQ activists do. But broadly speaking, our analysis is that women’s lives are shaped by their physical differences from males as well as the cultural meanings derived from these. The exploitation of women’s domestic and caring labour, for example, is linked to (though not justified by) our role in reproduction. Female anatomy makes us vulnerable in specific ways to sexual violence, such as pregnancy from rape. Our breasts are the most common site of cancers among women.
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@TeWaio said in Gender Studies:
Have you read the article? I just did and it's a strangely compelling read.
It's basically a black woman, who really enjoyed fried chicken in her youth. And then decided that it was something racist, because people of colour generally enjoyed fried chicken. So she then became ashamed of her love of fried chicken and instead, tried to make posh fried chicken her thing. She then talks about the origin of the dish, slavery, deep south USA etc etc. And puts together some rather thin parallels and and decides that it's time to grow up.
She has now got through her massive drama and is no longer ashamed of the fact she likes fried chicken. She feels she's free of the racism around it. You go girl, you won (against a battle you basically invented in your head).
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@MajorRage I did read the article, and thought it was so cringe that I just posted a screenshot in here for headline lols. The part where she served fancier Japanese style fried chicken at her supper club, even though she didn't like it as much was epic.
Gender Studies