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@canefan said in The Folau Factor:
@MajorRage said in The Folau Factor:
@Rembrandt for the second time.
Previously warned. Which for me is a big factor.
And according to the Fitzimmons article his standard contract had no social media clause as it was a standard clause. But there were accompanying documents with the new contract which in essence warned him and his management what would happen if he did it again, and he simply ignored them. He brought this on himself
But contractual terms that try and enforce an abrogation of a legal right such as religious freedom (which, from what I can see, is firmly entrenched at state and federal level and has been affirmed by numerous court cases) are not enforceable. They can’t legally ask him to set aside a human right.
ARU will lose in court, I’ll wager a chocolate fish on it.
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@JC in this day and age, it seems both sides are incredibly stupid.
Folau for posting what he did and not expecting any blow back, and ARU for moving the way they have and not expecting him to fight it, when all signs point to them losing.
After his last time, was he issued with a written warning, if he was and given explicit directives about his actions, and warned not to do this again, despite nothing written into his contract about it, can this be enforced?
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@Salacious-Crumb said in The Folau Factor:
It’s an employment issue when you hold the wrong views. Pocock has a lot of strong political convictions that he shares with the public, but they are politically-correct views, and one suspects he won’t suffer a dime’s loss for promoting any of them. He’ll more likely be patted on the head and promoted as a “courageous” role model.
No I'm sorry this is just bullshit.
Pocock got arrested when he chained himself to a bulldozer a few years ago. While some people called him 'courageous', the ARU actually sent him a warning letter - similar to the one they sent to Folau last year.
You know what he did then? He pulled his head in. He's been pretty silent on the political front lately, and as a result he's faced no repurcussions from the ARU.
And when he has made statements, they are general statements that are inclusive and not related to any minority groups. Because he knows the ARU policies and knows he has to abide by them.
Folau's actually been pretty vocal on religious issues for a long time. His insta is full of posts about Jesus, and nobody has really cared. Until he started involving a minority group, which he's been told numerous times is against ARU policy.
I feel like a broken record on this, but there's a bit of rubbish flying around this thread and I think some things bear repeating.
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@barbarian said in The Folau Factor:
You know what he did then? He pulled his head in. He's been pretty silent on the political front lately, and as a result he's faced no repurcussions from the ARU.
I think this is where this is going to pivot on - legally, how much can ARU control their employees in their social appearances? The fact that Pocock pulled back doesn't necessarily imply that what the ARU did was legal or legit.
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Yup, arrested and STILL EMPLOYED.
Was his contract terminated for breaking the law? Yes-or-no?
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@Salacious-Crumb No, but neither was Quade Cooper's.
Being arrested shouldn't necessarily result in termination. There's room for nuance there, as there has been in the case of Folau.
Edit: It's also worth noting that Pocock had no conviction recorded as a result of the protest.
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Here’s the thing(s) that I think are absurd, ridiculous and effin-hilarious about this, ummmm, scandal...
Folau says people like me (an atheist) is going “straight to Hell.”
I’m not the slightest bit offended, because atheism (allegedly “my choice” according to some) means I don’t believe in Hell. It’s a make-believe concept, in MY opinion. There was a time I would have been stoned to death for believing such thoughts, but it’s what I believe. Folau could have said supporting All Blacks means you will end up in Mordor, and it would be just as equally assinine and not worth seriously contemplating. And for what it’s worth, Leviticus tells us that eating shrimp, lobster and shellfish is just as much an abomination as homosexuality. I’m only disappointed there weren’t enough characters in Folau’s tweet to add that abomination to his 8 groups.
And then again, I suppose Hell is such an indisputably really-real place with a three-headed dog guarding Lucifer and his Seven Circles, that you’d have to make an equally conscious deliberate “choice” not to believe it exists, in the same way that I think Scientology is horsekak. My reckoning is that the onus is on first-earthers, moon-hoax truthers and true believers like Folau to make a convincing argument proving that such a place exists in reality, and not a figment of the imagination. But then, I made the choice to be a heretic, didn’t I?
And that’s what makes me laugh — that the people who are most wound-up and losing their shit about Folau’s comments really seem to believe this Hell place is as real as the Vatican. It’s like losing your mind because of something in a Harry Potter book and pretending it’s the nightly news. It’s manufactured outrage.
Adding: I think Tom Cruise’s religious beliefs are laughably idiotic. But I’m still going to watch his movies, because in spite of his dumbass religious beliefs, I enjoy his films, in the same way that Folau’s religious beliefs have fuckall to do with his brilliant footballing talents.
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God sends liars to hell. Apparently.
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@canefan said in The Folau Factor:
God sends liars to hell. Apparently.
Jeez this pisses me off ...
In dissecting Folau's looming sacking by Rugby Australia last week, Wide World of Sports recalled a first-person column by the Wallabies superstar, written last year after his first harmful social media attack on LGBTIQ people.
What about the asexual? Damn asexualophobics ... where's the "A"?
Hate speech.
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Folau stands alone as the rest fall into line with their pay masters
The rugby family are meant to believe that Israel Folau is fighting for his future. Surely the boot is on the wrong foot. Israel must stay. Enough is enough. The board must go.
Nonetheless, watch the Judas brigade and its mercenary membership line up behind Rugby Australia and spout the party line. Israel speaks from conviction and Christian commitment.
What is the motivation for many of his critics in Rugby administration? Sadly the Wallabies coach, Michael Cheika, has lost his moral compass on this; but then, in this day and age, would he be the next victim if he were to defend Folau’s right to cite the King James Bible?
Wallabies captain Michael Hooper is on the payroll for more than $1 million. Why put that at risk by defending Israel’s right to express a biblical truth?
How many people are singing the company tune to keep their gravy train rolling?
To use a biblical analogy, it is sickening to see these blokes taking their pieces of silver to sell out their former teammate and celebrated player. Rod Kafer somewhat fancifully said: “The Wallabies are a better team without Folau.” With that judgment, why would anyone listen to his commentary? No wonder he failed as a coach if that is his evaluation of a prodigious talent.
Phil Waugh was a tough and uncompromising player, dedicated totally to the green-and-gold. But now, sadly, on the board of Rugby Australia, he is singing the board’s tune.
If as some suggest, though I don’t agree, Folau should have kept quiet surely that is precisely what some of his critics should be doing. But if the gravy train terminates at Rugby Australia then I suppose it is asking for too much moral courage to expect some people to get off the train rather than stay on it for the money.
I know Karmichael Hunt. He is a good person and a fine player. He has been silly and he knows that. But he has been given three chances. His obvious decency, to anyone who knows him, was twice damaged by drug-related offences; but he is now on chance number three.
I don’t have a problem with that. I would give anyone a second chance, or a third chance if I knew that what lay in the future was the prospect of a good and reformed person. But is our message to kids that the taking of drugs is OK for the “values of the game”, but having strong religious beliefs and sharing them is wrong.
How odd that Rugby Australia preaches “diversity” and “inclusiveness” when what they really mean is uniformity or exclusion.
It was General George Patton, who commanded the US Seventh Army in the Mediterranean theatre in World War II and the US Third Army in France and Germany following the Allied invasion of Normandy, who said: “If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.”
The only person we have not heard from is Scott Johnson. He has been back almost a month and he is silent. Where does he stand on this matter? Does he also think that it is OK for Qantas to sign contracts with nations where homosexuals and women are treated abominably; yet we are prepared to ostracise, demonise, punish and banish an Australian who has done nothing wrong other than state his beliefs. Is Johnson going to fall into line with the rest of the gravy train brigade? He is on big money. He was appointed, as I understand it, to be the boss; but when real leadership is needed, he has become gun-shy.
So keen to fall in line with the Qantas demands and gather up the money, Rugby Australia have completely ballsed up the whole show.
Of course, they have good form in the balls-up business. Remember the chairman Cameron Clyne calling a press conference over the summer then wet the bed when he was asked to explain the coaching restructure.
The bed wetters are now running around squeaking that Qantas may pull their sponsorship because Alan Joyce wants Rugby Australia to sack Folau and, apparently, any of his mates who hold similar views. If Joyce is not applying the weights to Rugby Australia, let him clear the air and say so; but to the rugby follower, a dirty tail seems to be wagging a mongrel dog and the politically correct minority sharpen their knives.
Before proclaiming Folau’s guilt, one would have thought he was entitled to the deliberation of a tribunal. But RA have already said he won’t play for Australia; he won’t be picked for NSW; his contract will be ripped up. Folau is, sensibly, going to contest all this. But this is after the event.
Rugby Australia have already called for punishment, banishment and termination because Folau warned “drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists, idolaters, hell awaits you, repent, only Jesus saves … Jesus Christ loves you and has given you time to turn away from your sin and come to him”. This is nothing more than what all Christians are called to do. It is part of the great commission Jesus gave to his disciples.
Matthew 26:18-20: “Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you’. ”
We are talking about a young man who is a dedicated Christian expressing a legitimate view based on biblical teaching. Christians around the world are under siege. It appears now that sanctions of the most draconian kind are being imposed on Christians here who dare to proclaim their faith.
Anglican Bishop Michael Stead, who heads the South Sydney diocese, said on Tuesday: “If a rugby player can be sacked for doing nothing more than posting on his social media page what is essentially a summary of the Bible, then it is a signal to the rest of us that we better keep our mouths shut.”
Forcing people to keep their mouths shut because they might express a view contrary to ours has almost become the norm. It is interesting that Joyce is entitled to his view even though, apparently, Folau is not. But surely Joyce cannot appropriate his view to the whole Qantas family, many of whom disagree with him.
And by what Christian teaching do we seek to destroy an individual and his career for articulating a summary from the Bible, which is thousands of years old? Folau, as I have said before, is from a devoutly religious Polynesian family and it is interesting that many who now criticise him have, in the past, demanded tolerance for their viewpoint.
And that is fair enough. A diversity of viewpoints is healthy; but none of that tolerance is extended toward Folau. What is to happen to many of Folau’s fellow players who “liked” what he had to say? Are they to be banished? The drunks, the liars, the thieves, the fornicators and the atheists are not complaining.
Have we reached the point articulated in the Keith Murdoch Oration in Melbourne on Tuesday night by the chief executive of News Corp, Robert Thomson, who declared that a mob mentality has taken hold across much of the west … with “illiberal liberals” on a “seemingly endless, insatiable quest” for indignation and umbrage.
Thomson declared: “We are going through a strange phase in seeking affirmation through victimhood; and one example was the seething secularism that portrays any person of faith, whether an evanescent evangelical or occasional attendee at mass or synagogue or mosque or temple, as a nutter, a fruitcake, touched, a devotee of the deviant.”
Is that, shamefully, the category in which we seek to cast Folau? Billy Vunipola, the England number 8, has voiced his support and he too has been muzzled. There are thousands of other Pacific Island players, all over the world, who hold strong religious beliefs and back Folau.
Most of these players support families back in the islands and will remain silent for fear that if they speak up, they will lose their contracts and they will no longer be able to support their extended families. Be proud Cameron Clyne. What a legacy.
It has been jarring for the average Australian rugby fan to turn on the news and see Rugby Australia chief executive Raelene Castle and NSW Rugby boss Andrew Hore, both Kiwis, talking rubbish and questioning the character of Folau. The difference is, Folau is authentic.
In comparison, Hore and Castle are Kiwi rejects, seemingly able to trade off their nationality because our game is such a basket-case, our board members will listen to anyone wearing an All Blacks tracksuit.
Who the hell hired these people to run NSW and Australian Rugby? Christianity was introduced into the Pacific Islands by missionaries. Most of these Islander people don’t have a lot of material things. But you only have to see their smiles to know they are rich of heart. They could teach our administrators a lot. Israel, keep your head high. There are millions of ordinary Australians in your corner. Not all of them share your beliefs but they recognise your right to express them and they understand you are coming from a place of love. For those of us who have looked at your complete comments, we understand you are genuinely concerned for your fellow man.
These words are not yours. They have been part of the scriptures for 2000 years.
As I have said this week, Folau has shown a rare degree of moral courage. I would want him in my team any day.
Beyond his rugby skills, his example of moral courage is one that should inspire young people. This is not a battle that rugby administrators can win but they think they can. We know that rugby today is in a dark place.
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@antipodean who was the author? (Can't see through the pay wall)
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@booboo said in The Folau Factor:
@antipodean who was the author? (Can't see through the pay wall)
None other than Alan Jones. Apologies, I should have put that in but thought it obvious given the bile directed at Castle, Clyne and Hore.
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Alan Jones got it spot on. I hope Folau takes this to court
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@antipodean interesting take as a gay man.
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@Kirwan said in The Folau Factor:
@antipodean interesting take as a gay man.
... who is capable of objective review and an accurate summary of the facts. Alan Jones has, as Baron Silas Greenbank states, got it spot on alright.
I've had some idle time this afternoon and, in casting about the issues of the day, I have found several opinions about the matter echoing Alan Jones' view.
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As far as pissing sponsors off Folau has really nailed it.
Given that he plays for the Qantas Wallabies and he has condemned fornicators and gays, I wonder if he knows that the unofficial expanded version of the acronym "Qantas"?
(Queers And Nymphomaniacs Trained As Stewards").
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@Snowy said in The Folau Factor:
As far as pissing sponsors off Folau has really nailed it.
Given that he plays for the Qantas Wallabies and he has condemned fornicators and gays, I wonder if he knows that the unofficial expanded version of the acronym "Qantas"?
(Queers And Nymphomaniacs Trained As Stewards").
Funnt how QANTAS are happy to parther with countries that murder gays
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[...] “Rod Kafer somewhat fancifully said: “The Wallabies are a better team without Folau.” With that judgment, why would anyone listen to his commentary? No wonder he failed as a coach if that is his evaluation of a prodigious talent.” [...]
I can’t say I’ve agreed with Alan Jones in the past, but that was awesome..
Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions