Black Lives Matter
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@Siam said in Black Lives Matter:
@DMX said in Black Lives Matter:
@rotated said in Black Lives Matter:
Ignore the supposedly fringe elements including property damage, talk of reparations and the 'disease of whiteness' philosophy and look at something as simple as Defund the Police. Surely that forms a core part of the BLM platform at this stage?
My personal opinion is that it is not a core but its a great narrative for the haters. I also think its a misnomer to talk in terms of BLM leadership or a BLM platform. The people who register the name or website have the same ownership over it as Jeff Bezos does the Amazon rainforest or Tim cook does over apples. Most people don't even know who these so called leaders are. If you ask anyone in detail what Defund the Police even means I reckon you get a dozens of answers. Most reasonable people do not say that there should be no police. I have heard of taking social work duties and funding away from the police (seems reasonable). I have heard things like the police should act more like a community policing organization and less like a military unit. I have heard that reform of the current structure of accountability is needed. I don't know what the best solutions are but a fair minded debate seems in order.
If the movement has pushed corporations and people to recognize unconscious biases, if it pushes the country to re-examine policing, education and criminal justice, if it makes it easier to vote, I believe these would be steps towards a positive outcome.
Amen brother!
Never mind the mild irritation of those innocents who have lost their lives and livelihoods - their fault for not pushing primary school reform.
I said the same thing when ISIS took care of the uncomfortable seats in the Manchester arena. If not for their positive influence people wouldn't have new seats to watch pop concerts. Similarly without Tarrant, we'd still have assault rifles shooting up the community on a weekly basis.
Jesus, this is pretty rough. I know the BLM protests have some rough edges but it's clearly touched a nerve right across the country and may well yield some positive change. But apparently from behind a keyboard in Aus/NZ you can compare it to ISIS. Whatever floats your boat I suppose.
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@barbarian innocent people having their lives destroyed to bring about change ignores the innocent people.
None of it is necessary so no, not a bright side to any movement.
Similarly " rough edges" does nothing to help the innocent - also from a keyboard eh
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@barbarian oh let's keep going, how is a comparison of ISIS and blm not valid?
2 movements with deeply flawed ideologies and strategies for human coexistence on the planet. Neither ideology holds up to any scientific scrutiny.
Both get their message across by wanton violence and killing innocent people. Fear. Neither engages in policy debate or reform. Both use violence in such a way that everyone else must adjust their lives to their ideology, (80 days of rioting, police depts defunded, crime up, no cartoons, grooming gang immunity) and always in a one sided manner and always examples of obvious hypocrisy.
Both subvert with highly charged labels - racist and infidel.
Both offer only 2 options - with or against, racist or infidel.
Only one though, demands that you take a knee to them.And yet always people bow to these bullies and our lives must change, while their position strengthens all because they threw big tantrums to get their way. And right now that's a winning strategy.
Some obviously prioritise the good that may, one day, come ( yield) from this movement, while I prioritise the harm to innocent people in portland and Minnesota and wonder why they have to pay the price for a movement whose whole ideology can be discredited in an hour of honest debate and data.
Black lives matter has killed more blacks than white police this year. It's a constant presence in everything that's stupid this year, from billions of dollars rioting damage to breaking lockdowns to march in a country that has no racial connections to America.
Actually it's just an obvious and trite slogan, hijacked by tantrum throwing bullies.
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@Siam said in Black Lives Matter:
@barbarian oh let's keep going, how is a comparison of ISIS and blm not valid?
2 movements with deeply flawed ideologies and strategies for human coexistence on the planet. Neither ideology holds up to any scientific scrutiny.
Both get their message across by wanton violence and killing innocent people. Fear. Neither engages in policy debate or reform.I really don't want to get into an extended back and forth on this, as it seems you have made up your mind like most on this thread and the politics board more broadly.
But to say "Both get their message across by wanton violence and killing innocent people. Fear. Neither engages in policy debate or reform." is just objectively untrue in the case of BLM.
The widespread protest movement has seen both policy debate and reform. I posted a link earlier on the thread about one organisation born out of BLM that is seeking a number of tangible policy changes to policing, and has pursued these in a number of cities and states. And it's not 'defund' extremism (edit: it's https://www.joincampaignzero.org/#action)
You have taken a few examples of where it's all boiled over (which is obviously deplorable) and ignored the thousands of peaceful protests, attended by millions of people. And the different ways it has touched a nerve right around the world, including here in Australia, yielding positive results (things like this which has cast a light on the history of racial abuse in the AFL).
I totally agree the riots and deaths have been horrible, and detract from the overall aims of the movement. But to equate the movement wholly to those extreme examples, as you have done, is unfair.
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@barbarian good post mate, fair points.
There is one glaring difference between campaign zero ( who look great btw) and BLM though... I'd say there's no way blm endorse them ( would love to be proven wrong though)
and yes you're right, my mind is made up about any movement discriminating on the basis of immutable characteristics.
I don't think blm can take any credit for advancing race relations in America, or the world, but i appreciate your optimism and your positive outlook.
Time will tell if the political class will deliver like they willingly haven't for about 30 years, and provide better opportunities for black people from here on.
Since some good things are growing, can we ask blm to stop the riots now please🙂 as you say, they've got the point across.
Thanks for giving me another angle to look at Barbs
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@Siam I think you both have valid points.
There are genuine concerns from black people in America.
There are various groups of people trying to hijack the message and the cause for their own ends, which are not consistent with black America.
A quick (real quick) google search finds articles, such as this one, which indicate the lot of black America is better than it was 40 years ago in pretty much every metric
Things may be better, but it doesn't stop black Americans wanting further improvement, and right now voices have gotten a little more urgent
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Experiment: (a funny one)
Type in antifa.com into the google address bar
Don't need to click on the link.
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@Frank said in Black Lives Matter:
Experiment: (a funny one)
Type in antifa.com into the google address bar
Don't need to click on the link.
😂
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Well this has devolved quickly, doesn't take long for charged rhetoric to pretty much put a halt to balanced debate. The Isis and Marxism part came way earlier than I anticipated , not sure I will stick around for the other stuff that usually follows ( or I should say is already following). I was going to spend time countering every point but I see my original points are being ignored anyway and I will probably have the same chance as changing minds or providing perspective as I would on a 4chan board.
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@DMX Don’t give up too soon mate. Whilst there are some fairly entrenched views on both sides of the spectrum here, I haven seen instances where such views have been challenged and sometimes changed. Myself included. Most of the posters on here are pretty fair minded and open to debate once they’ve got some shit off their chests.
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@DMX said in Black Lives Matter:
My personal opinion is that it is not a core but its a great narrative for the haters. I also think its a misnomer to talk in terms of BLM leadership or a BLM platform. The people who register the name or website have the same ownership over it as Jeff Bezos does the Amazon rainforest or Tim cook does over apples. Most people don't even know who these so called leaders are. If you ask anyone in detail what Defund the Police even means I reckon you get a dozens of answers. Most reasonable people do not say that there should be no police. I have heard of taking social work duties and funding away from the police (seems reasonable). I have heard things like the police should act more like a community policing organization and less like a military unit. I have heard that reform of the current structure of accountability is needed. I don't know what the best solutions are but a fair minded debate seems in order.
If the movement has pushed corporations and people to recognize unconscious biases, if it pushes the country to re-examine policing, education and criminal justice, if it makes it easier to vote, I believe these would be steps towards a positive outcome.
I think that just goes to the lack of clarity of exactly what someone is signing up for if they support BLM.
Most right minded people wholeheartedly agree with the three words themselves, and the need to look at some of the systemic issues in some areas of society that have come to light - the most obvious being law enforcement. The step beyond that is where people (reasonably) say 'I'm out'.
I wish debates could be had but there is obviously a clear chilling effect in play. Taking the NBA strike for example no one inside that ecosystem (players, coaches, GMs, credentialed journalists) from what I saw criticized the strike on one hand for taking place at all or on the other hand not being long enough. Why is a precisely two day strike the right course of action, but cancelling the season not? You have over 100 international players from 35+ nationalities in the NBA, plus coaches and media from all over the the US and beyond and they all came to the exact same conclusion - yet in the broader community we see a wider and nuanced range of opinions.
Then because of the actions of the NBA the NHL was pressured into doing the same reportedly against the desires of a predominantly Canadian/Scandinavian/Eastern Bloc player base located in bubbles in Toronto and Edmonton.
The same thing happened in reverse with Kapernick in the NFL - and in both cases we can't even have a proper debate about appropriate forms of protest - not even actual reforms.
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@Frank said in Black Lives Matter:
Experiment: (a funny one)
Type in antifa.com into the google address bar
Don't need to click on the link.
I get antifa.com or antifa.com domain owner. What am I missing?
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@DMX said in Black Lives Matter:
Well this has devolved quickly, doesn't take long for charged rhetoric to pretty much put a halt to balanced debate. The Isis and Marxism part came way earlier than I anticipated , not sure I will stick around for the other stuff that usually follows ( or I should say is already following). I was going to spend time countering every point but I see my original points are being ignored anyway and I will probably have the same chance as changing minds or providing perspective as I would on a 4chan board.
I agree with @Catogrande. Stick around and post up the counter points.
I do see the irony in your post though.
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@Bones said in Black Lives Matter:
@Frank said in Black Lives Matter:
Experiment: (a funny one)
Type in antifa.com into the google address bar
Don't need to click on the link.
I get antifa.com or antifa.com domain owner. What am I missing?
So did I. Clicked through. It was quite funny.
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@Siam @barbarian I can’t believe I’ve just read a number of posts where you disagree with eachother as strongly as you do but you do it in such a respectful manner. Good work fellas. Eye opening stuff.
Part of me does miss @Baron-Silas-Greenback a bit though.
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@MN5 said in Black Lives Matter:
I think this happened quite a few years ago but definitely worth remembering Police brutality doesn’t discriminate
love it, shouldn't laugh... Very serious topic...
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@R-L said in Black Lives Matter:
@MN5 said in Black Lives Matter:
I think this happened quite a few years ago but definitely worth remembering Police brutality doesn’t discriminate
love it, shouldn't laugh... Very serious topic...
#justiceforgruber