Black Lives Matter
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@DMX said in Black Lives Matter:
The other notable point was the idea that "Black Lives Matter" is some kind of a political, party composed of anarchists and rioters a narrative that has been effective for Trump and co but a source of frustration for most supporters who are peaceful. At its core I dont think the statement could be clearer and simpler " We matter, our lives matter, see us, help us".
Great post! But I have to disagree on that the message is clear. Much is done and said in the name of the movement and with no figurehead or centralized demands/policy it is incredibly murky exactly what the boundaries of the broader BLM movement are.
Ignore the supposedly fringe elements including property damage, talk of reparations and the 'disease of whiteness' philosophy and look at something as simple as Defund the Police. Surely that forms a core part of the BLM platform at this stage?
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@Catogrande said in Black Lives Matter:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Black Lives Matter:
@Catogrande said in Black Lives Matter:
Anyway, back to the point in question, who of any weight has he beaten?
The same weight of opponent that Blair, Thatcher, Wilson & McMillan beat?
At the end of the day, "Weight" is subjective, winning isn't.
Ach! My friend, we will have to agree to disagree on this one I think.
Well, to be fair, time will tell if either of us are right....
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@rotated said in Black Lives Matter:
Ignore the supposedly fringe elements including property damage, talk of reparations and the 'disease of whiteness' philosophy and look at something as simple as Defund the Police. Surely that forms a core part of the BLM platform at this stage?
My personal opinion is that it is not a core but its a great narrative for the haters. I also think its a misnomer to talk in terms of BLM leadership or a BLM platform. The people who register the name or website have the same ownership over it as Jeff Bezos does the Amazon rainforest or Tim cook does over apples. Most people don't even know who these so called leaders are. If you ask anyone in detail what Defund the Police even means I reckon you get a dozens of answers. Most reasonable people do not say that there should be no police. I have heard of taking social work duties and funding away from the police (seems reasonable). I have heard things like the police should act more like a community policing organization and less like a military unit. I have heard that reform of the current structure of accountability is needed. I don't know what the best solutions are but a fair minded debate seems in order.
If the movement has pushed corporations and people to recognize unconscious biases, if it pushes the country to re-examine policing, education and criminal justice, if it makes it easier to vote, I believe these would be steps towards a positive outcome.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Black Lives Matter:
@voodoo said in Black Lives Matter:
What I still haven't really seen from the athletes and any other figures of prominence, is a clear direction in terms of what they want to see. Protest is one thing, but what's the end goal? It can't just be "justice". What does "reform" look like? Surely not just defunding the police?
Ask them some searching questions and they probably just don't have a clue. They see something wrong and just want to do something to show their concern - many to virtue-signal, others to make themselves more bankable to their target market.
BLM leaders do know what they want - pretty much revolution and tearing down the capitalist state.
I think this is a little harsh. One of the main reasons for the NBA shutdown the other day was for players to come together and work out next steps, how to take the movement beyond protest and into action.
This seems to initially involve putting more pressure on ownership, as well as things like opening up team arenas as polling places on election day.
I think many players are mindful that this needs to go beyond wearing BLM t-shirts when they are warming up.
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@DMX . In order to believe that the core part of the BLM message is good you then have to ignore 30+ murders since George Floyd, hundreds of businesses destroyed, billions of dollars of damage, hundreds of assaults, all by folk screaming (and with graffiti) 'Black lives matter'. You'll have to ignore the supposed BLM leaders, ignore the official website, their official twitter, and rants from verified twitter supporters and promoters. You then also have to ignore crime statistics, you have to be wilfully blind to what happens in the real world when a violent felon of any skin tone resists arrest and you have to ignore video and witness testimony of the majority of these well publicised incidents where a black person dies at the hands of police..you then also have to assume that the exact same incidents with white victims just don't happen (again despite video evidence to the contrary). You also have to ignore studies that show the average person living in a black neighbourhood want the same if not an increase police presence.
I agree that Black lives matter, but its like saying 'puppies are cute!' of course its true! But what this movement seems to be increasingly showing is that its not 'Black lives' that matter its 'Black criminals lives matter' and their victims, who are overwhelmingly black, well according to this movement their lives aren't worth a damn.
But I am open to seeing another side of this, can you point me to where this moderate BLM message exists? Who is pushing it? Are they calling out this supposed fringe element? What makes their message the authentic BLM message? I'd like to see what evidence their message is based upon.
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@DMX said in Black Lives Matter:
@rotated said in Black Lives Matter:
Ignore the supposedly fringe elements including property damage, talk of reparations and the 'disease of whiteness' philosophy and look at something as simple as Defund the Police. Surely that forms a core part of the BLM platform at this stage?
My personal opinion is that it is not a core but its a great narrative for the haters. I also think its a misnomer to talk in terms of BLM leadership or a BLM platform. The people who register the name or website have the same ownership over it as Jeff Bezos does the Amazon rainforest or Tim cook does over apples. Most people don't even know who these so called leaders are. If you ask anyone in detail what Defund the Police even means I reckon you get a dozens of answers. Most reasonable people do not say that there should be no police. I have heard of taking social work duties and funding away from the police (seems reasonable). I have heard things like the police should act more like a community policing organization and less like a military unit. I have heard that reform of the current structure of accountability is needed. I don't know what the best solutions are but a fair minded debate seems in order.
If the movement has pushed corporations and people to recognize unconscious biases, if it pushes the country to re-examine policing, education and criminal justice, if it makes it easier to vote, I believe these would be steps towards a positive outcome.
Amen brother!
Never mind the mild irritation of those innocents who have lost their lives and livelihoods - their fault for not pushing primary school reform.
I said the same thing when ISIS took care of the uncomfortable seats in the Manchester arena. If not for their positive influence people wouldn't have new seats to watch pop concerts. Similarly without Tarrant, we'd still have assault rifles shooting up the community on a weekly basis.
Long live blm and their 81 day peaceful "protests".
Finally, someone that can see the wood for the trees.
Gotta go, I've got to submit my unconscious bias phd before the deadline that doesn't apply to me because I'm " coloured". Apparently I'm in for some of the $300 million that's been donated to no one in particular or maybe a website domain holder.
No, dmx, I don't think you've thought through you argument particularly well...
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@Siam said in Black Lives Matter:
@DMX said in Black Lives Matter:
@rotated said in Black Lives Matter:
Ignore the supposedly fringe elements including property damage, talk of reparations and the 'disease of whiteness' philosophy and look at something as simple as Defund the Police. Surely that forms a core part of the BLM platform at this stage?
My personal opinion is that it is not a core but its a great narrative for the haters. I also think its a misnomer to talk in terms of BLM leadership or a BLM platform. The people who register the name or website have the same ownership over it as Jeff Bezos does the Amazon rainforest or Tim cook does over apples. Most people don't even know who these so called leaders are. If you ask anyone in detail what Defund the Police even means I reckon you get a dozens of answers. Most reasonable people do not say that there should be no police. I have heard of taking social work duties and funding away from the police (seems reasonable). I have heard things like the police should act more like a community policing organization and less like a military unit. I have heard that reform of the current structure of accountability is needed. I don't know what the best solutions are but a fair minded debate seems in order.
If the movement has pushed corporations and people to recognize unconscious biases, if it pushes the country to re-examine policing, education and criminal justice, if it makes it easier to vote, I believe these would be steps towards a positive outcome.
Amen brother!
Never mind the mild irritation of those innocents who have lost their lives and livelihoods - their fault for not pushing primary school reform.
I said the same thing when ISIS took care of the uncomfortable seats in the Manchester arena. If not for their positive influence people wouldn't have new seats to watch pop concerts. Similarly without Tarrant, we'd still have assault rifles shooting up the community on a weekly basis.
Jesus, this is pretty rough. I know the BLM protests have some rough edges but it's clearly touched a nerve right across the country and may well yield some positive change. But apparently from behind a keyboard in Aus/NZ you can compare it to ISIS. Whatever floats your boat I suppose.
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@barbarian innocent people having their lives destroyed to bring about change ignores the innocent people.
None of it is necessary so no, not a bright side to any movement.
Similarly " rough edges" does nothing to help the innocent - also from a keyboard eh
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@barbarian oh let's keep going, how is a comparison of ISIS and blm not valid?
2 movements with deeply flawed ideologies and strategies for human coexistence on the planet. Neither ideology holds up to any scientific scrutiny.
Both get their message across by wanton violence and killing innocent people. Fear. Neither engages in policy debate or reform. Both use violence in such a way that everyone else must adjust their lives to their ideology, (80 days of rioting, police depts defunded, crime up, no cartoons, grooming gang immunity) and always in a one sided manner and always examples of obvious hypocrisy.
Both subvert with highly charged labels - racist and infidel.
Both offer only 2 options - with or against, racist or infidel.
Only one though, demands that you take a knee to them.And yet always people bow to these bullies and our lives must change, while their position strengthens all because they threw big tantrums to get their way. And right now that's a winning strategy.
Some obviously prioritise the good that may, one day, come ( yield) from this movement, while I prioritise the harm to innocent people in portland and Minnesota and wonder why they have to pay the price for a movement whose whole ideology can be discredited in an hour of honest debate and data.
Black lives matter has killed more blacks than white police this year. It's a constant presence in everything that's stupid this year, from billions of dollars rioting damage to breaking lockdowns to march in a country that has no racial connections to America.
Actually it's just an obvious and trite slogan, hijacked by tantrum throwing bullies.
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@Siam said in Black Lives Matter:
@barbarian oh let's keep going, how is a comparison of ISIS and blm not valid?
2 movements with deeply flawed ideologies and strategies for human coexistence on the planet. Neither ideology holds up to any scientific scrutiny.
Both get their message across by wanton violence and killing innocent people. Fear. Neither engages in policy debate or reform.I really don't want to get into an extended back and forth on this, as it seems you have made up your mind like most on this thread and the politics board more broadly.
But to say "Both get their message across by wanton violence and killing innocent people. Fear. Neither engages in policy debate or reform." is just objectively untrue in the case of BLM.
The widespread protest movement has seen both policy debate and reform. I posted a link earlier on the thread about one organisation born out of BLM that is seeking a number of tangible policy changes to policing, and has pursued these in a number of cities and states. And it's not 'defund' extremism (edit: it's https://www.joincampaignzero.org/#action)
You have taken a few examples of where it's all boiled over (which is obviously deplorable) and ignored the thousands of peaceful protests, attended by millions of people. And the different ways it has touched a nerve right around the world, including here in Australia, yielding positive results (things like this which has cast a light on the history of racial abuse in the AFL).
I totally agree the riots and deaths have been horrible, and detract from the overall aims of the movement. But to equate the movement wholly to those extreme examples, as you have done, is unfair.
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@barbarian good post mate, fair points.
There is one glaring difference between campaign zero ( who look great btw) and BLM though... I'd say there's no way blm endorse them ( would love to be proven wrong though)
and yes you're right, my mind is made up about any movement discriminating on the basis of immutable characteristics.
I don't think blm can take any credit for advancing race relations in America, or the world, but i appreciate your optimism and your positive outlook.
Time will tell if the political class will deliver like they willingly haven't for about 30 years, and provide better opportunities for black people from here on.
Since some good things are growing, can we ask blm to stop the riots now please🙂 as you say, they've got the point across.
Thanks for giving me another angle to look at Barbs
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@Siam I think you both have valid points.
There are genuine concerns from black people in America.
There are various groups of people trying to hijack the message and the cause for their own ends, which are not consistent with black America.
A quick (real quick) google search finds articles, such as this one, which indicate the lot of black America is better than it was 40 years ago in pretty much every metric
Things may be better, but it doesn't stop black Americans wanting further improvement, and right now voices have gotten a little more urgent
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Experiment: (a funny one)
Type in antifa.com into the google address bar
Don't need to click on the link.
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@Frank said in Black Lives Matter:
Experiment: (a funny one)
Type in antifa.com into the google address bar
Don't need to click on the link.
😂
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Well this has devolved quickly, doesn't take long for charged rhetoric to pretty much put a halt to balanced debate. The Isis and Marxism part came way earlier than I anticipated , not sure I will stick around for the other stuff that usually follows ( or I should say is already following). I was going to spend time countering every point but I see my original points are being ignored anyway and I will probably have the same chance as changing minds or providing perspective as I would on a 4chan board.
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@DMX Don’t give up too soon mate. Whilst there are some fairly entrenched views on both sides of the spectrum here, I haven seen instances where such views have been challenged and sometimes changed. Myself included. Most of the posters on here are pretty fair minded and open to debate once they’ve got some shit off their chests.
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@DMX said in Black Lives Matter:
My personal opinion is that it is not a core but its a great narrative for the haters. I also think its a misnomer to talk in terms of BLM leadership or a BLM platform. The people who register the name or website have the same ownership over it as Jeff Bezos does the Amazon rainforest or Tim cook does over apples. Most people don't even know who these so called leaders are. If you ask anyone in detail what Defund the Police even means I reckon you get a dozens of answers. Most reasonable people do not say that there should be no police. I have heard of taking social work duties and funding away from the police (seems reasonable). I have heard things like the police should act more like a community policing organization and less like a military unit. I have heard that reform of the current structure of accountability is needed. I don't know what the best solutions are but a fair minded debate seems in order.
If the movement has pushed corporations and people to recognize unconscious biases, if it pushes the country to re-examine policing, education and criminal justice, if it makes it easier to vote, I believe these would be steps towards a positive outcome.
I think that just goes to the lack of clarity of exactly what someone is signing up for if they support BLM.
Most right minded people wholeheartedly agree with the three words themselves, and the need to look at some of the systemic issues in some areas of society that have come to light - the most obvious being law enforcement. The step beyond that is where people (reasonably) say 'I'm out'.
I wish debates could be had but there is obviously a clear chilling effect in play. Taking the NBA strike for example no one inside that ecosystem (players, coaches, GMs, credentialed journalists) from what I saw criticized the strike on one hand for taking place at all or on the other hand not being long enough. Why is a precisely two day strike the right course of action, but cancelling the season not? You have over 100 international players from 35+ nationalities in the NBA, plus coaches and media from all over the the US and beyond and they all came to the exact same conclusion - yet in the broader community we see a wider and nuanced range of opinions.
Then because of the actions of the NBA the NHL was pressured into doing the same reportedly against the desires of a predominantly Canadian/Scandinavian/Eastern Bloc player base located in bubbles in Toronto and Edmonton.
The same thing happened in reverse with Kapernick in the NFL - and in both cases we can't even have a proper debate about appropriate forms of protest - not even actual reforms.