Alternative to Red Cards?
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@Billy-Tell said in Alternative to Red Cards?:
Red card = man sent off. He can be replaced after 20 minutes to bring the game back to 15 players.
And if a player is sent off with 19 mins to go? Just bad luck and timing?
I thought there was a study done which showed that, on average, a yellow card usually costs a team about 14 pts. Perhaps more applicable if it is a PT and YC.
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@Kirwan said in Alternative to Red Cards?:
Is it bad I now want to see someone get a black card?
Yes, it is. Black is the colour of good.
Bring in an orange between yellow and red.
Not that I'm suggesting the incident that shall not be discussed in this thread should have been an orange ...
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If you wanted to gift points to the opposition the best you could do to at least keep things adjacent to the way rugby is played is perhaps award a penalty in front on the 22 metre line irregardless of field position of the offence - similar to a penalty try/technical foul in basketball.
Play could then recommence with a penalty at the place of the infringement as normal or with a kick off if you want to be less punitive.
The issue is that most cards happen on defense within kicking range anyway.
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@Cyclops said in Alternative to Red Cards?:
Would also feel pretty hollow to lose a game because of a 79th minute red card in an otherwise non threatening position (e.g high shot when the opponent are trying to run the ball out of their own 22).
One would think it would feel hollow to win a game after the ball ricochets off your bat for four or after a deal was brokered in the 79th minute, but seemingly not.
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@Tim I really don't like the 14 point penalty - coaches will coach their players to seek to draw red cards - e.g. in a RWC game with 5 minutes left and you're 13 points down - diving into people's shoulders. It's a perverse incentive.
I think the solution is three types of cards - a red card goes back to what it was for in the days of Colin Meads - punching, stomping, gouging - stuff that almost never happens these days.
A blue card - player sent off for 10 minutes and must be replaced by a different player - for serious technical infringements - e.g. Barrett. Goes before judiciary.
Yellow card.
They can't continue to ruin big matches with 14 playing 15.
I see Steady Eddie has said the Barrett one was ridiculous and there could equally have been two similar in England vs Wales.
IMO he's right. It was certainly very soft to lose a man for - if that's one of the four worst things the ABs have ever done then they should all be canonized!
p.s. I see amidst the red cards issued earlier @Kirwan suggesting the same thing.
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@rotated said in Alternative to Red Cards?:
@Cyclops said in Alternative to Red Cards?:
Would also feel pretty hollow to lose a game because of a 79th minute red card in an otherwise non threatening position (e.g high shot when the opponent are trying to run the ball out of their own 22).
One would think it would feel hollow to win a game after the ball ricochets off your bat for four or after a deal was brokered in the 79th minute, but seemingly not.
Perhaps you should have the discipline to hold the ball, understanding the state of the game, rather than throw and risk a freak occurrence that upsets an otherwise almost unassailable position?
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@Bovidae said in Alternative to Red Cards?:
I thought there was a study done which showed that, on average, a yellow card usually costs a team about 14 pts. Perhaps more applicable if it is a PT and YC.
Not that much for a yellow apparently.
"Since 2012, South Africa have averaged just a minus one (-1) point deficit when down a man, while Australia have managed a two point advantage against teams who have a conceded a card."
ABs "Those sin-bins didn’t have a great impact though, with an average points difference of only -0.3. That is down to both an excellent defence and the fact they have often managed to outscore opponents, despite being down a player."Read more at https://www.rugbyworld.com/tournaments/european-champions-cup/stats-yellow-cards-really-bad-39058#U2rWh9FKm6Rb9kfm.99
Don't have answer to the red problem though. I must admit to not watching the second half until later as I knew we were going to lose with a man down for 40, so would have been well annoyed if I had paid for a ticket. Rugby is all about a contest, that is severely diminished when 15 on 14 for long periods of time.
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Add me to the idea of a third card between yellow and red. It seems an obvious solution, which is why I'm sure World Rugby won't be able to come up with it.
I get that they are trying to send a message to stamp out foul play, but to expand the scope of red cards was not a smart way to do that. An orange card (or whatever colour you want) to give a more severe punishment for high end yellows would still send that message without completely ruining the game.
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@Snowy I was thinking more at SR and M10 Cup level, but I acknowledge that the defence is not as good as for international teams.
Think back to the 2015 RWC final where Aust got back into the match with 2 tries when BFA was in the naughty chair.
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If WR are to clamp down on contact to the head, that's OK.
But for normal rugby gone wrong (E.g. Benjamin Fall & Tu'ungafasi in last years France test series) that should come in a category between red or yellow.
I'm not particularly fussed about early reds for proper red offences, and its effect on that particular match.
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They also point out that most teams will know their numbers so may be willing to push the boundaries more, esp late in a game. Obviously nobody plays for a red though.
The problem with a red sanction is the penalty can be 80 mins game time whist down to 14, or 1 min. Hardly equitable if 2 players commit the same offence - one in the first minute and another on the opposing team in the last.
No easy solution that I can see - other than don't be an idiot and get a red, or if you do, do it late in the game.
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@Chris-B said in Alternative to Red Cards?:
for serious technical infringements - e.g. Barrett
that's an interesting way to word it. He shoulder charged him in teh head!!
I've been banging the drum for a while that rugby has got too liberal with the cards. I would prefer the threshold for both cards rolled back a bit, but i am very much aware i am a voice from the past that doesn't gel with current thinking.
I would have been happy with a yellow for that on the weekend. Hopper played on. Reds should be serious violence only.
Rugby is fucked enough without adding more grey areas to it.
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@mariner4life That's what ended up happening, but I'm pretty doubtful Barrett's intention was to do that. I.e. that he would have regretted not being more effective by waiting till Hooper was on the ground and punching him in the face.
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@Chris-B said in Alternative to Red Cards?:
@mariner4life That's what ended up happening, but I'm pretty doubtful Barrett's intention was to do that. I.e. that he would have regretted not being more effective by waiting till Hooper was on the ground and punching him in the face.
i have watched it a few times now, and i can't tell what else he was trying to do? There was no other outcome available. Dumb act.
But. The impact was minimal. Bin him for bin a silly bugger. And that's my solution. Same cards, just less of them.
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@mariner4life Who knows - I haven't been able to easily find a video showing a few more seconds of where Barrett has come from - just a second of slow-mo.
I'd like to think there's not too many psychopaths running around international rugby and that Barrett's mistimed a tackle and braced for impact rather than lining Hooper up for a visit to the hospital.
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@mariner4life said in Alternative to Red Cards?:
@Chris-B said in Alternative to Red Cards?:
@mariner4life That's what ended up happening, but I'm pretty doubtful Barrett's intention was to do that. I.e. that he would have regretted not being more effective by waiting till Hooper was on the ground and punching him in the face.
i have watched it a few times now, and i can't tell what else he was trying to do? There was no other outcome available. Dumb act.
But. The impact was minimal. Bin him for bin a silly bugger. And that's my solution. Same cards, just less of them.
To me there was little intent, just clumsy. He barely hit him even though Hoopah screamed like he'd been stabbed
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@Chris-B said in Alternative to Red Cards?:
@mariner4life Who knows - I haven't been able to easily find a video showing a few more seconds of where Barrett has come from - just a second of slow-mo.
I'd like to think there's not too many psychopaths running around international rugby and that Barrett's mistimed a tackle and braced for impact rather than lining Hooper up for a visit to the hospital.
brace for impact? You cantabs are hilarious. You are supposed to start with denial, then go to anger, not the other way around
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@mariner4life Cantab? Get fucked JAFA!