The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission



  • “Surely it is better to carry your third-best No 10 who can cover fullback No 15 rather than your third-best No 15 who may or may not be able to cover No 10?”

    Paul Cully on Stuff nails what many of us are thinking about the All Blacks’ selectors mystifying decision not to include Josh Ioane as a third playmaker for the World Cup, preferring to give a place instead to Jordie Barrett.

    OK, it was Tonga, but did anybody - while watching Ioane’s composed, astute and commanding performance in the second half at Hamilton - reflect that the wrong person was being left behind? What, apart from height and a propensity for brain farts, does the third Barrett offer that Ioane doesn’t?

    We know Ioane can play fullback, but has anyone seen JB play 10? Besides, the ABs already have plenty of cover at 15 in Barrett, Smith and Bridge. As for goal-kicking, who would you
    rather trust to nail a clincher in a World Cup match?

    It puzzles me, as I am sure it does others. What would Grant Fox say in defence?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup/rwc-2019-japan/115621329/rugby-world-cup-josh-ioane-shows-all-blacks-what-they-are-missing-out-on



  • Jordie has played ten for canes Vs lions I think? But yeah it seems weird to me, especially if we'll see the dual play maker thing used.



  • From answers to questions from the media about Josh Ioane in the past few weeks, I got the impression that the selectors think the RWC may come too early for Josh. All good starting Josh at 10 in a opposed training run against Tonga when the ABs are leading by 54 points at half time, but maybe there's something we don't get to see (at training, for example) that justifies their decision to leave him out of the squad and go for a more versatile player instead. Having said that (yes, broken record), I'd still pick David Havili over Jordie Barrett.



  • I don't get it either. It's easier for me to see us needing J. Ioane in a KO game than Jordie. Who really cares who plays in the other two pool games?



  • Cully does realize injury replacements can be called in right?

    The gap between BB/RM and Ioane is so wide that having Ioane in the squad or out of the squad makes little difference.



  • @rotated said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    Cully does realize injury replacements can be called in right?

    The gap between BB/RM and Ioane is so wide that having Ioane in the squad or out of the squad makes little difference.

    I'd prefer a third 10 in the squad, and would probably have gone with Ioane over JB but I don't see the outrage.

    The issue with replacements is the delay before a replacement can be added, and replacements are permanent.



  • Why take him when he can be called up? Looking great against a team that have already given up before you got on the field shouldn't give you a ticket to Japan. Also Jordie cleaned up after Josh's defensive display.



  • The RWC hasn’t come a year too early for Josh, it’s 2 - 3 years too early. He had some nice touches against Tonga but also showed why he’s not in the squad - defensive liability and his goal kicking is not there yet. His first conversion was on target but didn’t have the legs, which is a bit unforgivable if we’re talking about test class goal kickers.

    If the unthinkable did happen and we lost Beauden plus Mo’unga I think the plan is to put Jordie there to defend the channel plus kick goals, and on attack we will mix it up a lot at first receiver with BFA likely slotting in, particularly when deep in our own half.

    We can’t afford a deer in the headlights that can’t tackle at 10 in the knockout stages of the cup.



  • Perfect game to debut in. Game over, no defensive pressure, zero consequences.

    Those attacking kicks looked great, but if he fuck them, no one cares.

    I would have taken him too, but I agree it's a huge risk given our other 10 has barely played.



  • The serious questions about Ioane are about as preposterous to me as questioning why Rieko Ioane was included in the squad



  • I would have picked both Josh Ioane and Jordie and left Reece at home.

    Jordie because he provides lots of cover to a high enough standard and Ioane because if the worst case does happen he will have at least been with the team and had some time in minnow games.
    If he is there already it also doesn’t require one of the other guys to be sent home to bring him in.

    We have plenty of depth on the wings.



  • @pukunui I was not a Reece fan after his early test appearance. But the Bled 2 performance showed me he is worth exploring because he just might have some X factor that could help us bring Bill home. Reece has a chance of starting, Ioane will only play if our two best 10s, by a considerable margin, go down



  • @canefan said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    @pukunui I was not a Reece fan after his early test appearance. But the Bled 2 performance showed me he is worth exploring because he just might have some X factor that could help us bring Bill home. Reece has a chance of starting, Ioane will only play if our two best 10s, by a considerable margin, go down

    It’s not so much about Reece it’s that I don’t think we need an additional option on the wing when we have proven guys and a new guy in Bridge. Wing can also easily be covered by makeshift guys during minnow games.

    In both 2007 and 2011 we had multiple 1st 5 injuries so it’s not out of the realm of possibility that it happens again. Having to send one of BB or RM home when they might only miss a week because we need, at the very least, a goal kicking back up is a dumb risk to take to have an additional option on the wing.



  • @No-Quarter said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    The RWC hasn’t come a year too early for Josh, it’s 2 - 3 years too early. He had some nice touches against Tonga but also showed why he’s not in the squad - defensive liability and his goal kicking is not there yet. His first conversion was on target but didn’t have the legs, which is a bit unforgivable if we’re talking about test class goal kickers.

    If the unthinkable did happen and we lost Beauden plus Mo’unga I think the plan is to put Jordie there to defend the channel plus kick goals, and on attack we will mix it up a lot at first receiver with BFA likely slotting in, particularly when deep in our own half.

    We can’t afford a deer in the headlights that can’t tackle at 10 in the knockout stages of the cup.

    I think if the unthinkable happens and we lose Barrett and Mo'unga, we're basically fucked whoever plays 10.

    That said, I'd want it to be Josh Ioane.



  • @Chris-B said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    @No-Quarter said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    The RWC hasn’t come a year too early for Josh, it’s 2 - 3 years too early. He had some nice touches against Tonga but also showed why he’s not in the squad - defensive liability and his goal kicking is not there yet. His first conversion was on target but didn’t have the legs, which is a bit unforgivable if we’re talking about test class goal kickers.

    If the unthinkable did happen and we lost Beauden plus Mo’unga I think the plan is to put Jordie there to defend the channel plus kick goals, and on attack we will mix it up a lot at first receiver with BFA likely slotting in, particularly when deep in our own half.

    We can’t afford a deer in the headlights that can’t tackle at 10 in the knockout stages of the cup.

    I think if the unthinkable happens and we lose Barrett and Mo'unga, we're basically fucked whoever plays 10.

    That said, I'd want it to be Josh Ioane.

    I agree we are fucked by then. I guess opinions will be split between handing the reins to a greenhorn untested at test level and playing a utility player who is established in the existing squad.

    My concern would stem from the Colin Slade experience. He looked good enough in cameos before the RWC that most posters were comfy enough with him as third option over beaver and cruden. Yet he was all at sea in the game he played and it was Cruden Beaver and Piri that came through with the goods in the end. Just. Josh is not Colin, but he's had less time in the black 10 jersey



  • @pukunui said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    In both 2007 and 2011 we had multiple 1st 5 injuries so it’s not out of the realm of possibility that it happens again.

    One of the biggest problems with the military is its propensity to train to fight the last war. I don't think we should take a third five-eighth just because in the past we've occasionally required one. The disparity between the top two and Josh is immense. Better to take the best possible squad and then deal with eventualities as required.



  • @canefan said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    @Chris-B said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    @No-Quarter said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    The RWC hasn’t come a year too early for Josh, it’s 2 - 3 years too early. He had some nice touches against Tonga but also showed why he’s not in the squad - defensive liability and his goal kicking is not there yet. His first conversion was on target but didn’t have the legs, which is a bit unforgivable if we’re talking about test class goal kickers.

    If the unthinkable did happen and we lost Beauden plus Mo’unga I think the plan is to put Jordie there to defend the channel plus kick goals, and on attack we will mix it up a lot at first receiver with BFA likely slotting in, particularly when deep in our own half.

    We can’t afford a deer in the headlights that can’t tackle at 10 in the knockout stages of the cup.

    I think if the unthinkable happens and we lose Barrett and Mo'unga, we're basically fucked whoever plays 10.

    That said, I'd want it to be Josh Ioane.

    I agree we are fucked by then. I guess opinions will be split between handing the reins to a greenhorn untested at test level and playing a utility player who is established in the existing squad.

    My concern would stem from the Colin Slade experience. He looked good enough in cameos before the RWC that most posters were comfy enough with him as third option over beaver and cruden. Yet he was all at sea in the game he played and it was Cruden Beaver and Piri that came through with the goods in the end. Just. Josh is not Colin, but he's had less time in the black 10 jersey

    It's really choose your poison.

    We're going to have a mighty struggle to beat the top teams with our best team available - let alone a makeshift first five. He might as well have a big red button on his jersey saying "Press here for Victory". It would make our experiments of playing fullbacks at centre look like works of genius.

    Think back to when Leon played a couple of games at first five. Pretty sure he conceded charge down tries in both games he played 10 - and he was a guy who'd played quite a bit of first five - in fact, he was initially a 10 who converted to fullback.



  • @Chris-B said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    @canefan said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    @Chris-B said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    @No-Quarter said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    The RWC hasn’t come a year too early for Josh, it’s 2 - 3 years too early. He had some nice touches against Tonga but also showed why he’s not in the squad - defensive liability and his goal kicking is not there yet. His first conversion was on target but didn’t have the legs, which is a bit unforgivable if we’re talking about test class goal kickers.

    If the unthinkable did happen and we lost Beauden plus Mo’unga I think the plan is to put Jordie there to defend the channel plus kick goals, and on attack we will mix it up a lot at first receiver with BFA likely slotting in, particularly when deep in our own half.

    We can’t afford a deer in the headlights that can’t tackle at 10 in the knockout stages of the cup.

    I think if the unthinkable happens and we lose Barrett and Mo'unga, we're basically fucked whoever plays 10.

    That said, I'd want it to be Josh Ioane.

    I agree we are fucked by then. I guess opinions will be split between handing the reins to a greenhorn untested at test level and playing a utility player who is established in the existing squad.

    My concern would stem from the Colin Slade experience. He looked good enough in cameos before the RWC that most posters were comfy enough with him as third option over beaver and cruden. Yet he was all at sea in the game he played and it was Cruden Beaver and Piri that came through with the goods in the end. Just. Josh is not Colin, but he's had less time in the black 10 jersey

    It's really choose your poison.

    We're going to have a mighty struggle to beat the top teams with our best team available - let alone a makeshift first five. He might as well have a big red button on his jersey saying "Press here for Victory". It would make our experiments of playing fullbacks at centre look like works of genius.

    Think back to when Leon played a couple of games at first five. Pretty sure he conceded charge down tries in both games he played 10 - and he was a guy who'd played quite a bit of first five - in fact, he was initially a 10 who converted to fullback.

    Goes to show how miraculous 2011 was. We were lucky to have 2 10s who had test match experience and time in the set up, and they did just enough to help us squeak through. Even then, it wasn't like Beaver ran the show on his own



  • @canefan An understated part of the miracle was that we played the last 30 odd minutes with Andy Ellis and Beaver as our halves.

    In terms of flak copped, we could as well have had Anton throwing to the lineout and Akira Ioane at No. 8. 🙂



  • @Chris-B said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    @canefan An understated part of the miracle was that we played the last 30 odd minutes with Andy Ellis and Beaver as our halves.

    In terms of flak copped, we could as well have had Anton throwing to the lineout and Akira Ioane at No. 8. 🙂

    I forgot about that. Ellis was a great team man while not being at the level of the incumbent starters. A great little redemption story to add to the legend of the Beaver



  • In all fairness, I thought Ellis was pretty good that night , no superstar, but a calm head on his shoulders



  • @No-Quarter said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    The RWC hasn’t come a year too early for Josh, it’s 2 - 3 years too early. He had some nice touches against Tonga but also showed why he’s not in the squad - defensive liability and his goal kicking is not there yet. His first conversion was on target but didn’t have the legs, which is a bit unforgivable if we’re talking about test class goal kickers.

    If the unthinkable did happen and we lost Beauden plus Mo’unga I think the plan is to put Jordie there to defend the channel plus kick goals, and on attack we will mix it up a lot at first receiver with BFA likely slotting in, particularly when deep in our own half.

    We can’t afford a deer in the headlights that can’t tackle at 10 in the knockout stages of the cup.

    The risk is that there’s still a chance we have a deer in the headlights anyway with your boy JB, and this one is used to playing fullback, not 10.



  • @kiwiinmelb said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    In all fairness, I thought Ellis was pretty good that night , no superstar, but a calm head on his shoulders

    I don’t think you need to add in all fairness, Angela and the Duck both did the business that night.

    Ellis wasn’t up to test rugby when first selected but he improved as the years went on.



  • @kiwiinmelb said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    In all fairness, I thought Ellis was pretty good that night , no superstar, but a calm head on his shoulders

    Ellis overtook Cowan as the bench option? I seem to recall Jimmy being the backup for a long time, can anyone remind me what the circumstances were?



  • @canefan said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    @kiwiinmelb said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    In all fairness, I thought Ellis was pretty good that night , no superstar, but a calm head on his shoulders

    Ellis overtook Cowan as the bench option? I seem to recall Jimmy being the backup for a long time, can anyone remind me what the circumstances were?

    I think Cowan was number 1 for a while, partly because he was playing good rugby and partly because Henry liked Piri coming of the bench as he could read the game well.

    But his form dropped off a cliff in RWC year, otherwise we may have seen Piri play 10 as for much of the tournament he was really a 9.5 anyway.



  • I'm not sure we need J Barrett in the squad at all, but nor do we necessarily need J Ioane. All this crap about all the positions Barrett can cover is at this stage of his All Black career a complete misnomer.

    Barrett sits in this squad as the third choice fullback, fifth choice winger and completely unproven as a midfielder at test level. Is he a pre-requisite? Fuck no.



  • @antipodean said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    Why take him when he can be called up? Looking great against a team that have already given up before you got on the field shouldn't give you a ticket to Japan. Also Jordie cleaned up after Josh's defensive display.

    If Mounga/Beauden get a one week injury for a quarter or semi, I would like to have a specialist 10 on the bench. We can't do that with the current squad.



  • Yeah I'd have dropped SBW for Ioane. Midfield is well stocked and I'd prefer Jordie covering there in the minnow games than ten. Plus SBW can br brought in when Crotty gets injured against SA.



  • Big fan of Josh Ioane but I think the TWM have got this right.

    One of the things the ABs have done really well in the last 10 years or so is taking a long view and developing players slowly rather than throwing them in at the deep end.

    There's been exception like Reiko & the GOAT but the approach has worked for the likes of BB, Sam Cane, Ardie etc.



  • @antipodean said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    @pukunui said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    In both 2007 and 2011 we had multiple 1st 5 injuries so it’s not out of the realm of possibility that it happens again.

    One of the biggest problems with the military is its propensity to train to fight the last war. I don't think we should take a third five-eighth just because in the past we've occasionally required one. The disparity between the top two and Josh is immense. Better to take the best possible squad and then deal with eventualities as required.

    It’s a pretty stupid analogy though. Like saying we don’t need to guard the back of the fort because the enemy attacked us from there last time, there is absolutely no way they will do that again.

    Ideally BB and RM stay fit and they cover 10 against minnows from within the squad with Jordie goal kicking.

    But worst case is RM and BB both pick up minor injuries during pool play and are out of the Qtr.

    Then we are stuck with a makeshift starter and an even more makeshift backup who isn’t even a recognised goal kicker (the biggest plus of Jordie).
    You can’t bring in Ioane for that one game because it means you then have a fit again RM or BB now sitting back in NZ watching Ioane, the guy you didn’t want in the first place, in the semi and final if we make it that far.

    All for an extra option on the wing because you can’t decide the first choice combo.



  • Or maybe J Barrett becomes the sacrificial lamb in that scenario in order to maintain options at 10



  • @shark said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    Or maybe J Barrett becomes the sacrificial lamb in that scenario in order to maintain options at 10

    Still leaves you with only one fit goal kicker in a knockout game.



  • Jordie's in the squad for his world-class skills. If they can work on his temperament, he'd going to be some player:

    I think he will be on the bench for South Africa and the RWC knockouts.



  • I think he'll eventually end up permanently at 12, at all levels. But at the moment he's about as much use to the All Blacks as tits on a bull.



  • @kiwiinmelb said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    In all fairness, I thought Ellis was pretty good that night , no superstar, but a calm head on his shoulders

    Remembering Jimmy Cowan had forgotten how to play rugby through that tournament



  • @canefan said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    @kiwiinmelb said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    In all fairness, I thought Ellis was pretty good that night , no superstar, but a calm head on his shoulders

    Ellis overtook Cowan as the bench option? I seem to recall Jimmy being the backup for a long time, can anyone remind me what the circumstances were?

    He turned to shit



  • @booboo he had a shoulder or wrist injury for most of that season.



  • @shark I don't really get the hate for Jordie Barrett from some on here. He made a big error in the Boks test last year, but wasn't solely to blame for defeat. He is an outstanding young player with great skills and versatility.

    He might well be 10 for the Hurricanes next year. I see him developing into a 12 or a 13 eventually though.



  • @sparky said in The Mystery of Josh Ioane’s Omission:

    @shark I don't really get the Jordie hate from some on here. He made a big error in the Bok test last year, but wasn't solely to blame for defeat. He is an outstanding young player with great skills and versatility.

    He might well be 10 for the Hurricanes next year. I see him developing into a 12 or a 13 eventually though.

    He played well in the Lions series. He set up Julian Savea for a dead cert try in the decider only for Julian to shell the easy pass just like he did in the Super final a few years ago (this one was much easier). He is a very good goal kicker too



  • Didn’t need Josh during the RC/Bledisloe, won’t need him during the RWC.

    From my armchair I think they’ve taken the extra outside backs and midfielders because I don’t think they have a “top combo” per se and there is a fair amount of horses for courses with those players. When it comes to the backs the only thing that is absolutely clear is that Aaron Smith, TJP, Beauden and Mo’unga are in our top 23.

    We might think such and such is top wing, or player x is first choice centre, but selections will be dictated by player fitness and opposition.


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